TRV 950 vs A1 - low light question

Hey DeanB - I notice you say that these two cameras, which I aslo own now, are 'about the same' re low light. That is not my experience at all, and I wonder if we are doing something different. Are you using a wide angle converter? I am and I feel that that makes a difference - it certainly did for me last year with two 950s shooting side by side on a live-aboard, one with a converter one without, so I am assuming that having a converter lowers the light available to the CCDs (not necessarily intuitive, but definitely our experience in side by side tests with the 950s).

My recent long weekend in Bali with the A1, with the camera in exactly the same housing and using the same converter as my 'old' 950, definitely gave much worse low light performance than the 950 in similar conditions.

I'm about to do more tests in a couple of weekends with the A1 with and without the converter (unfortunately because of my WB mod I couldn't do a 'no converter' test last w/e - I'm getting that fixed now) and will again report back, but I am interested in your experiences and your reasons for believing these two cameras have the 'same' low light capability. Based on my recent A1 footage I can only hope that I can somehow attain the same low light results as my 950 ......

Cheers, Nick

Hi Nick,

I was going by what I filmed on a cloudy day a couple of weeks a go.

I first took my TRV950 in my Amphibico dive buddy plus and shot a few minutes at about 9:30 am. Then swapped over to the A1 in the same housing same .55x lens and same place. When I got back home to view the footage there was hardly any noticeable difference lighting wise. Only the A1 had a lot better picture quality..

O'k this not a proper test and maybe there was an hours more daylight for the A1 it was about 11:30 - 12, but it wasn't as though I thought..Bugger I going to sell my A1.

Not forgetting I was only in 5-6 metres of water tops.

I'm buying the PRO EVO on wednesday with better control access so hopefully...Better results.

I Still think the A1 outclasses the 950 hands down.

Dive safe

DeanB

Forgot to say that my older TRV50 was better at handling low light than the 950 and that was a 1chip camera.

Picture quality was shite though.

Dive safe

DeanB

Guys

unless you quantifiably measure the available light and/or have both cameras shooting the same scene at the same time at full auto, you'd be comparing apples and oranges all day. Dean says I shot in low light cloudy day, Nick says I shot in low light murky bay.

Quite possibly too is what viewing methods you are using. Are you using a HD monitor or judging from that little LCD or downloaded to the computer playing back on a CRT or LCD.

My own tests, with an A1U and Z1U at about 100lux, the A1U s is struggling hard to keep up. And that gain is amplified by the MPEG2 compression algorithm. Shoot the A1U in DV and you'll see what I mean.

Agreed Drew, and there is no comparison between the Z1/FX1 and the A1; also agreed these are empirical field tests. However, I have used my 950 for 2+ years in all conditions, and know the type of output it generates and my housing backwards. I know the 950 would have performed differently under the recent conditions in which I tested the A1. The low light capabitiy with the 950 was never great anyhow, but when conditions deteriorated the grain and noise were less pronounced. It's only an observation - not the Spanish inquisition.

I'm having a ball with the A1's higher quality HDV material so no regretting the purchase. However this forum is for exchanging and sharing experiences and I'm trying to learn how I can maximize the A1's performance.

I wasn't taking this too seriously either. As I said a million times the A1 out classes the 950.. O.k the low light maybe better in different situations. But in the field I was using it there was not much of a difference. I just thought the way Nick was describing it, it was a chalk and cheese , black and white scenario. Maybe he forgot to take the lens cap off the A1 and I keep saying if the A1 was as good as the FX1 there would be no FX1...

I have yet to view my stuff on a proper HD television so I cannot judge through that. I'm taking my footage down to the BBC on Tuesday so they can see if they can use the HDV or DVCAM material. So I'll see what the beeb geniuses can do with it. (By the way Drew, they won't budge on the footage costs. Because its only for a 10min programme not a proper doccy. If I want more they will just pull out)

Lets just all enjoy our A1's and walk the world in peace and love

Dive safe

DeanB

Guys,

I have to agree with Nick. I have shot my old 950 in the exact same locations as Nick shot his A1. In bali...30 foot swim through decending from 60 feet to 80 feet. I have numerous takes of this and have shot side by side with Nick and his 950 many times with quite similar results. In all my shooting, I never saw such sever limitations with the 950 than we saw with the A1...never. It was actually appalling in some situations...especially the swim through.

My advice, accept it and take action to address it. The A1 is a great little cam..but it is just that...a little cam. Great shots require great light. Feed that little guy light...it's small HD sensor is hungry. More external glass and wider is always better. Get rid of stuff behind that glass such as internal wide converters of thick or dense filters. For the A1, shoot closer, search out better vis, use lights when possible. This cam has a lot to offer but needs to be optimized.

shawn

Note to all who want to compare TRV950 to the A1. Shoot both in DV in low light then compare.

I just compared the A1 to my TRV900.

To get the same FOV you have to hold the A1 lens at the back of the TRV900 viewfinder.

Side by side with the level lenses the difference is huge.

I'm with Shawn...give the little camera lots of light.

Can you shoot the A1 in 4:3 like you can the FX or Z? that would be the better test i would think. Same field of view? i have no idea...

Wagsy, is that what you did or did you leave the A1 in 16:9?

Mike

I left the A1 in 16,9 while the TV900 is set at 4.3

At the same lens distance the TRV900 FOV is heaps wider and higher.

Needed to move the A1 back so the lens was behind the TRV900's viewfinder to get the fov looking the same.

Now my D70 is having focus problems....arg...don't they ever make things last these days....

Oh well,

I'll sell my A1 and go back to the 950 seeing how we are all slating it

Why bother. Oh yeah because I seem to be getting some great footage from it

Now can we close this argument. The A1 is not as good as the FX1 and the Fx1 is not as good as the Z1 and there all crap compared to the new Sony HDCAMS.

Now where's my credit card

Life's to short, be happy with what you got ( insert another exgirlfriend joke)

Dive safe

DeanB

Edited by Moderator for content.

I shot the HC1 in La Paz and its low light performance was at least comparable to my old TRV900. Shooting a moray in a crevice without lights, color was fine and there were no artifacts. Inside wrecks and caverns with lights (which are only good to 3-4 feet) the surrounding areas were fine.

YEAH !!!

Someone else likes the little guys..

Lets get married, have kids and buy them matching A1's and HC1'S

Or just compare notes.

Dive safe

DeanB

For the record: I really, really like the A1..want to have kids with it:) Seriously, just been working with Nick on helping get the best footage possible with it. Key to that is understanding it's limitations. For example, a huge limitation of the FX1 is that is is sooooo big and difficult to transport. I eventually plan on getting an A1 when funds permit. It is an excellent travel cam and so portable.

Errr you think the A1 is excellent with or without that microphone and XLR adaptor?

Here's a twist..

I'm just back from the NHU in Bristol and they want me to film my project in DVCAM because (O.K drew you were right) they cannot use HDV. It was that the recording medium (Tape) is to compressed so giving the crappy artifacts. Apparently the HDCAM is not much better...Better, but still has it's limitations. The editor who was working on the 'Planet Earth' series said they've had problems with the HDV format and they use their Z1's in DVCAM mode only at the moment.

They were still impressed with my camera skills (got a few WOWS!) and we talked about future prog's as well Yipee !!!

I actually said "shall I ditch the A1 and buy a PD170" and was told that would 'in theory' be better but if the A1 does DVCAM..Stick with it. Apparently they can upvert to a 'nearly HD' with their super techno gadgets Looks like the PD170 is going to the great camcorder heaven. I might rent one out though if things look too bleak...

Oh well we live and learn. Thank the lord I didn't go for the Z1.. Ha, ha just kidding you lovely video guys. You should see what these guys can do with a thing called 'Smoke'..." Holy filter reversall Batfink!!"

Drew, Is there any other way of recording 1080i than on tape. Seeing as thats the only stumble block for our HDV babies...

Dive safe

DeanB

Back to the Pannie for you Dean....

Good info though Dean, thanks for sharing....

Dean

Sorry no can do with the A1. It is already converted to HDV out of the ilink. I remember there was talk of the FX1 Z1 being capable of 1080i 4:2:2 output via iLink. when I had my Z1, I never tried it.

Discreet(now autodesk) Smoke is an awesome program... for a production house. Richorn's specialty I believe.

Ric seems a little shy these days....

Tis a shame really, we are getting good at taking the piss out of each other and Ric is actually pretty good at that for a Yank...