Rate of pay for u/w video clips

Hey all, this was a recent topic of discussion. I was contacted recently by someone who wanted about 10 sec of cuttlefish changing colors. I usually charge $40. per second with a 10 sec minimum. He countered that his budget for the footage was only $250.00. The way I figure it, I spent thousands in travel and equipment costs to get the footage so why sell out. Here is my response. I am posting this only in hopes that an accepted standard of some sort permeates all of us, especially the newbie who is just trying to get into this and has dreams of being the next Howard and Michelle Hall and would jump at the chance for any credit at all.

Steve B)

Hi Steve,

I'd like to view the cuttlefish clips. Although my budget for this is $250.00 max for the footage. I could negotiate a "cuttlefish footage suppled by" credit in the short. I would probably need 10 seconds which I would use a few times in the short.

Looking for eery, dramatic color-changing shots.

Let me know if you'd be interested.

Regards,

Bob

Bob,

This is the first of a few to be sent. I am not sure when you will need footage by as I am leaving for Hawaii on Sunday and am bringing the computer in this afternoon which would make it impossible for me to get started, other than working on things today, until after the 28th. Other than for commercials, I would expect to be given credit for any footage used and I always maintain exclusive rights. Any footage sold would be for one time use within the constrains of your current product. No problem with distribution of said product. Since you are only looking for 10 seconds, I will accept $400.00 for the 10 seconds but absolutely no less. These clips are of the rare flamboyant cuttlefish found in Indonesia. I have much more cuttlefish footage but that would necessitate sorting through 100's of hours of footage which I could not get to until after I return from the shoot in Hawaii.

If you wish to contact me today via phone, I should be home most of the day editing.

Regards,

Steve

Looks good to me, Steve. Polite but firm. A template I will use as well.

For interest I mention that still image rates depend entirely on the useage. The same picture may sell for peanuts ($10s) for a limited distribution, low circulation magazine when used small, and the same image could earn you $1000s if used on a cover or DPS of a internationally distributed magazine. And that is just editorial. So as a still photographer we rarely get to have a standard image rate.

Alex

p.s. What is a cuddlefish? Sounds very affectionate.

Broadcast, advertising, online websites, video, stock and other uses of u/w video clips have different rates. Trying to charge the right rate for the right customer is a quagmire for many new shooters.

Hopefully this discussion will give some of you an idea for what to charge without undermining yourself or fellow shooters.

Alex a cuddlefish is cool but kinda difficult to get your arms around. But I think Americans prefer to flash'er$$ than to cuddle a fish.

PSS: The flamboyant cuttlefish is my favorite cephalopod.

Damn, and I teach English too. At least it was a fun misspelling.

Steve B)

Quote from Oxford English dictionary of fish 2007:

CUDDLEFISH: Fish that likes a cuddle- Often found amongst amphetamine loving, hippy cephalopods.

Dive safe

Dean(narcosis at 40M)B

Hi Steve,

Good subject and one we constantly battle. I normally counter meagre offerings for clip purchases thus:

Dear................

Thank you for your interest in my product. I would like to point out however that your price quoted for your requirements falls a little short of standard pricing for underwater footage of this subject. Using the latest in underwater acquisition technology, which incidentally comes at a very costly price, I endeavour to make my living by providing imagery so that others can learn from my work. The resulting sales generated from my work goes towards the upkeep and renewal of the tools of my trade as and when necessary.

As such I have formulated a rigid and concise pricing structure for all sales of my products. Should you find these acceptable then I would welcome any further discussions on this matter with you. Should you, on the other hand, deem these prices to be beyond your budgetary limitations then I wish you well in your search for suitable materials. I am certain there are other avenues where you will be able to locate and secure your required footage, albeit in potentially a lesser fomat than that which I film.

Sincerely,

.............................

It has to be short, sharp and to the point. "I don't do this for a hobby numb nuts" won't cut it but a polite and rigid stance will. If they are led to believe that their budget will only buy sub standard imagery then maybe they will reconsider their budget allowance for the uw clips, maybe not. BUT thats the risk we take. Stand by your guns and you should be fine.

My 2c

mark

Hi all,

I would also like to point out, before someone else does, that yes I have recently put out a call for a collaboartive effort on a shark protection project. The collaboration of donated footage for a NON COMMERCIAL project which requires a different attitude and response.

I think there is a fine line where as individual shooters we can decide if we want our footage represented in causes of this nature. The deciding factor being the message and context in which our images will be portrayed and projected. The main consideration for my involvement in matters such has this has always depended heavily in my belief of the piece in question. If I support and believe in the message then I would carfully consider being a part of it. I would also have to decide as to whether or not the producing entity has the ability to produce a project of a standard I would be happy for my images to appear in.

Hope this helps.

mark.

Mark is on point. There is a huge difference between collaborative efforts spearheaded by one and solicited business by others. This is a community here at wetpixel and I certainly intend to get some footage to Mark as soon as I return from Hawaii. Besides, I hear Mark is giviing free trips to Palau for all who contribute whether its used or not. He's a magnanimous guy he is.

Steve B)

Free trips..Far out man...

I'm up for that..

Uh, oh..Travel, you ment travelling

Ha,ha I knew..I knew.

Dive safe

Dean(Acid boy)B

To all those who contacted me after Steves note please understand that what Steve forgot to mention was that World Films and Travel, a dive travel specialist company based in San Diego, California, is actually a sponsor of the project and as such they will be supplying all air and travel tickets to the collaborators of Apex Pulse to dive here in Palau.

Phew, you had me worried for a minute there Steve .........

Wait for the avalanche.........hahaha

mark.

Here's a tricky one...

The National Council of Science Museums of India want to use my marine life DVD for "non formal science education like science demonstration for school students through their science museums".

They have 27 science museums/centres and six million visitors, mostly students.

It seems that they are hoping to be able to use the DVD for this purpose by just buying the DVDs at retail value. They wish to buy one copy, evaluate it, then place an order for "further multiple copies". They're implying the "not-for-profit organisation" and "student enrichment" as justifications for using the DVD without paying typical licensing fees.

What do you guys think I should do?

i think you should bargain hard...

That is commercial use of a product you are selling for personal use..

No idea what sort of prices but... its def commercial use

Here's a tricky one...

 

The National Council of Science Museums of India want to use my marine life DVD for "non formal science education like science demonstration for school students through their science museums".

 

They have 27 science museums/centres and six million visitors, mostly students.

 

It seems that they are hoping to be able to use the DVD for this purpose by just buying the DVDs at retail value. They wish to buy one copy, evaluate it, then place an order for "further multiple copies". They're implying the "not-for-profit organisation" and "student enrichment" as justifications for using the DVD without paying typical licensing fees.

 

What do you guys think I should do?

Well I donate my time and videos to university projects and classes occasionally. Nothing like actually seeing the stuff they are learning about, esp behavior. But that stuff isn't for public use, just inclass or projects only for academia.

What they want to do with your DVD is display it for the public in the museum. I'd charge them more than a DVD. Just tell them you charge $X but since they are a museum you'll charge them $X less 50%.

Here's another conundrum I've got related to licensing footage for a "good cause" (oh by the way the Indian lot vanished once pricing was discussed).

A company in the US want to license 90 seconds of my footage to use in an educational DVD for teaching American sign language (ASL) to kids. The president is deaf himself. As far as I can tell they're not a charity.

My list price for 90 seconds non-broadcast/worldwide/5 years is over USD 3K, but as is often the case the customer is "struggling financially", "cannot afford much", and are offering "credits and web addresses". Basically it sounds like they want a freebie or near-freebie.

I find pricing in these cases to be really difficult and I'd really appreciate some opinions on this. What do you reckon?

The president is deaf....

I knew it, Bush never listens to anyone but maybe Oil companies...

Dive safe

DeanB

I can't pretent that my footage is the same quality as many of you guys on here, but from time to time I do get enquiries about using some of it.

I've sold a bit at the commercial broadcast rates discussed here and I've turned others down who were not prepared to pay the going rate. However there have been a number of times when I've gladly given some footage away when I felt that it was a worthwhile cause. A couple of good examples were for a shark conservation project and to augument a scientific paper showing unusual/unique behaviour.

As I don't do this for a living it's probably a lot easier for me to give stuff away for no charge, but I can understand the dilema for a working pro videographer. I guess it all boils down to if you can afford to discount/give it away and is it (to you) a truly worthwhile cause? That part of it has to be down to an individual. I doubt if anyone would get on their high horse if the cause was worthwhile enough. At least I hope they wouldn't!

Cheers, Simon

Welcome back Simon,

Happy new year..How was the trip.

Are you (or anyone else for that matter) going to the Videoforum show 6-8 Feb at Earls court in London.

Give me a PM and we can arrange a meet.

Dive safe

DeanB

Hiya Dean

Yeah I hopefully want to go if I can get a day off work. I'll PM you so we can arrange to meet up and have a beer or 2 or 3 or....

Cheers, Simon