Low Light Performance HVX200 versus FX1/Z1U

Hello this is my first post on wetpixel. I've been doing some research about getting into some UW video work. I've done alot of production work on land but none underwater and I need some help making a decision with a camera. The majority of my work will be on land shooting outdoors with a smaller amount of work UW. I'll be shooting alot of hunting, fishing, and action sports and some auto racing for good measure. It seems to me that the HVX200 fits the bill well with the 720p 60p. I have had experience with the HVX200 during a 48hr film festival and loved the picture and features. I was however unimpressed with the low light performance. Lots of grain in low light areas on a few scenes. This makes me think that its performance in the water may not be that great. Ive seen lots of people going with the FX1/Z1U so it seems to have proven itself UW. Im basically torn between the on land performance of the HVX200 and the 720p 60p and what seems like a proven champ underwater with the Sonys. Also if anyone else has thoughts on other cameras not mentioned feel free to speak up.

Thanks,

Andrew

Andrew,

Drew owns the HVX and has some good practice with it. He can provide you some solid feedback. I have heard it is a solid cam but the write to chip uw is an issue. Also, the selection of housings is far more limited. The Z1 is a good peformer and has many housing options. It is 4:2:0 and 1080i so the output is a bit limited. I shoot FX1 and have be thoroughly delighted with its performance. The low light is really good but not quite as good as the PD170 and VX2000. If you are a serious shooter, these are probalby your best options for land and water combo.

Shawn

Welcome to Wetpixel Andrew.

I doubt I can help you in your quandry, unfortunately. I bought the HVX precisely for the 720 60P and 1080 24P 4:2:2 DVC Pro HD codec. It was, until a week ago, the only real progressive scan camera in that form factor. It is still the only one with variable FPS.

Underwater, it performed very well but progressive scan needs more light, that's the physics of CCDs for now. And you being an experienced shooter knows that light comes in all shapes and forms.

I will say that it takes a bit of switching around to get the HVX to work well u/w. P2 cards are now 8GB. With 2 8GB cards, you can shoot about 15+ minutes of DVC Pro HD at 60fps or 1080 24P. However you can shoot 720 30P Native mode and get about 31+ minutes. So unless you stock up on 8GB cards ($1700 a piece) and are willing to change cards after every dive, then it's great. Alternatively you can buy the P2 Store which downloads to a 60GB drive, so you have about 55+ minutes storage at 60P or more with 720 30PN(which should be enough for 2-3 dives)

Personally I shoot no more than 20mins each dive depending on what is going on obviously. If I find something I want to shoot 50mins, I have no choice but to switch to DV or tape.

There is a Firestor drive FS100 that allows for 90+ mins of HD recording. But the battery life is so so and it runs pretty warm. Put inside the housing, it did shut down on me a couple of times due to heat in the tropics. However in colder water, it was that much of an issue. A separate housing for that drive is the best solution since you have to set it up too to rec. But the connection is FW400 so it has to be live connected. I drowned my FS100 due to faulty cable connections(good thing I have insurance).

Basically, to put the HVX underwater will cost about $20+k in housing and media. What you get is 720P at 60P and the most beautiful slo-mo sequences available in that price range.

I suggest you buy the HVX with a MBG and rent the housing to test shoot in the conditions you will likely be in. I tested mine on 2 continents in variable viz.

If you can wait, check out the Canon XH series and also the HVR-V1 which is progrssive scan.

Thanks for the replies. This is a pretty tough decision. I will more than likely be able to hold out and see how well the newer Canons do. I have to get my wife's new kitchen appliances paid off first anyway. 80-90% of the work Im going to be doing is on land and outdoors where the variable frame rate and progressive video would shine. For those reasons the HVX200 is way out infront but the cost of getting in UW is a pretty high. I want my cake and eat it too but that never seems to be the case with picking one of these new HD cameras anymore.

Hi Andrew,

We all want to stuff our faces with that booty cake but it never works out that way..!!!! The HDV makers are just toying with our emotions.

Welcome to wetpixel..

Dive safe

DeanB

Thanks for the replies. This is a pretty tough decision. I will more than likely be able to hold out and see how well the newer Canons do. I have to get my wife's new kitchen appliances paid off first anyway. 80-90% of the work Im going to be doing is on land and outdoors where the variable frame rate and progressive video would shine. For those reasons the HVX200 is way out infront but the cost of getting in UW is a pretty high. I want my cake and eat it too but that never seems to be the case with picking one of these new HD cameras anymore.

Andrew

I suggest you check out the Sony HVR V1 if you must have progressive. The NTSC version should have 30 /24P. The Canon XLH1 and XH series still use the frame blending method to give the look of progressive but resolution is lost. Still slightly better than the software route. However the IR AF in the XH will probably be super accurate and faster than other cameras. Plus they have great manual controls for picture quality.

If I were you, I'd get the HVX200 for topside and then get a 2nd HDV camera and housing for u/w. This way you even have a B camera. Matching might be a bit of a problem but that's what post is for.

If I were you, I'd get the HVX200 for topside and then get a 2nd HDV camera and housing for u/w. This way you even have a B camera. Matching might be a bit of a problem but that's what post is for.

I have a feeling Im going to go this route. I think I would kick myself if I didnt get the HVX200 for all the topside work. I may get a smaller HC3/A1U as a companion to dunk underwater. The investment is smaller and like you said I can match them in post. I have AVID Xpress Pro HD and After Effects on my side.

Well I also think you should look at the V1. Preliminary clips from the camera look really good in 25P. And it also has the 240fps slo motion gimmick from the HC3. Reduced resolution but still quick fun to have in a lurch. Motion is much smoother than software rendering.

I have a few observations that might be of interest for this thread... As part of the team from Global Underwater Explorers filming the work of the Woodville Karst Plain Project, I've been using a mix of FX-1 (in both Light & Motion and Amphibico housings) and HC3 cameras (in a special one-off, Halcyon-built housing that extends the nose cone of a Gavin Scooter to include both the camera and a 50W light) to docment this year's exploration of the cave systems at Wakulla Springs and the Leon Sinks geologic area. In October we picked up an HVX200 for surface shooting with the idea of working with Halcyon to build a housing/lighting combo.

I've just returned from two weeks with the Mexico Cave Exploration Project, using the HVX200 to document their push dives in the Sian Ka'an biosphere and the Yaxchen system. Halcyon built a housing for the HVX that stresses simplicity and durability over bells and whistles, and we were able to shoot 800 minutes of in-water HD footage with relative ease. Some might remember the old Halcyon housings for the VX2000; the new housing is a variation on that design. It's a simple aluminum tube design with basic controls for hitting record and activating the rear monitor. An external firestore enclosure was milled out of aluminum; it has buttons for on/off/sync. The firewire cable runs through an external port and into the housing, as well as a power cable so that we can run the firestore from an external battery in the housing that also powers the monitor. Because the firestore is running from external power and is also using the enclosure as a heat sync, we didn't experience any overheating issues-- even with warm water temps on very hot days. By combining the firestore with the internal P2 cards, we were able to capture 100+ minutes of HD footage on every dive. The true limitation was the camera's battery.

The housing has two Halcyon Apollo 9 canisters, one mounted on each side, to power 50W HID lights on ultralite arms. As noted, it takes a lot of light to get good HD footage, so most dives included 2 diver-carried Halcyon 200W HID lights as well as a special front for a Gavin that embeds two additional 50W HIDs in the front of the scooter. The housing is neutral in the water and can be used with a plexi rear plate so you can use the rear monitor while swimming or by attaching the housing to the top of a scooter. We are also finishing a mounting place so that the housing can be used in place of a standard nose cone on a scooter for longer dives. Our housing obviously doesn't have the sophistication of the Gates housing, but it handles the firestore with grace and is very adaptable for a wide range of operations.

My experience after using the set-up in Mexico? If you can afford to put enough light in the water, you're going to have a very hard time going back to the FX-1. I've never seen such rich detail and saturation from underwater footage outside of IMAX. But the quality comes at a cost. While we were able to get acceptable footage in the cave from 2X50 HID plus 2X24W HID combos, the HVX really only came into its own when combined with the HMI lights. Running just the 2X50W set-up in the cave didn't work for anything other than tight close-ups. Anything more than ten feet away rolled into black.

Best,

Anthony Rue

true@gue.com

Hi Anthony,

Can you post any images of the Halcyon housing or is it too early yet?

What lens do Halcyon use for this housing?

Sincerely

Anders

Hi Anthony,

 

Can you post any images of the Halcyon housing or is it too early yet?

 

What lens do Halcyon use for this housing?

 

Sincerely

 

Anders

stuff the housing, I'd like to see some links to the video footage -- sounds awesome!

stuff the housing, I'd like to see some links to the video footage -- sounds awesome!

We're using the Century Optics wide angle lens. We were in a bit of a rush to finish the housing before the exploration project, so we went with an acrylic port on the housing. It was a "quick and dirty" solution so we could get the unit in the water, but we're now sourcing a better port solution.

I'll try to post some photos of the housing soon, but (thanks to other deadlines) I won't be able to post any video until I clear my current project off my editing system in the next week or two.

We're using the Century Optics wide angle lens. We were in a bit of a rush to finish the housing before the exploration project, so we went with an acrylic port on the housing. It was a "quick and dirty" solution so we could get the unit in the water, but we're now sourcing a better port solution.

 

I'll try to post some photos of the housing soon, but (thanks to other deadlines) I won't be able to post any video until I clear my current project off my editing system in the next week or two.

It is very possible that Fathom Imaging would be interested to construct a lens, similar to the SWP44 for this housing. That could really bring out the image quality of this great camera. Has Halcyon planned to include some form of White balance control?

It is an interesting solution since it probably would be less expensive compared to other housings on the market for this particular camera, and especially interesting with the Firestore solution. I know that this type of housing has worked well for regular DV-cameras on other GUE projects so the construction itself should be well proven.

Sincerely

Anders

It is very possible that Fathom Imaging would be interested to construct a lens, similar to the SWP44 for this housing. That could really bring out the image quality of this great camera. Has Halcyon planned to include some form of White balance control?

 

It is an interesting solution since it probably would be less expensive compared to other housings on the market for this particular camera, and especially interesting with the Firestore solution. I know that this type of housing has worked well for regular DV-cameras on other GUE projects so the construction itself should be well proven.

 

Sincerely

 

Anders

Seems (to me) like halcyon's method of white balance is to flood the entire cave/ocean with so much HID/HMI light that you wont need to WB

Seems (to me) like halcyon's method of white balance is to flood the entire cave/ocean with so much HID/HMI light that you wont need to WB

That method may work decent in a cave, but not as well in the ocean. I think a manual White balance comtrol would be a nice and less expensive addition.

Anders

That method may work decent in a cave, but not as well in the ocean. I think a manual White balance comtrol would be a nice and less expensive addition.

 

Anders

The prototype was really designed for cave work, where we set the balance to the color temp of the HMIs. I see your point about white balance in shallow open water, and it wouldn't be too difficult to include. At this time, however, we'd want to spend much more time in the water with the housing before Halcyon would consider the commercial potential of creating versions for sale.

Best,

Anthony

Anthony

Thanks for the write up.

For d/l the .mxf files, were you storing onto harddrives via computer? You say you shot 100+ mins per dive over 2 weeks. That's 106GB per dive. Were you dumping files you didn't want and storing the rest in FW drives?

I found that was the hardest part of having the FS100 or P2 cards... storage in the field. Obviously if you have a few dives a day, you'd have to transfer after each dive. Not great on a boat exposed to the elements? Unless you had 2 FS100s or more P2 cards?

Anthony

Thanks for the write up.

For d/l the .mxf files, were you storing onto harddrives via computer? You say you shot 100+ mins per dive over 2 weeks. That's 106GB per dive. Were you dumping files you didn't want and storing the rest in FW drives?

I found that was the hardest part of having the FS100 or P2 cards... storage in the field. Obviously if you have a few dives a day, you'd have to transfer after each dive. Not great on a boat exposed to the elements? Unless you had 2 FS100s or more P2 cards?

Data managment and backup has become a real pain. I brought 1.5T of storage with me on the trip-- my carry-on for the flight was a small suitcase with a stack of drives and a dome port. I'd have my laptop with me on site with an 80G firewire-powered drive so I could shoot the dive set-up, dump the P2 cards, then put everything back in the water. We're shooting with two 8G P2 cards and the firestore in chained sequence, so the longest one-at-a-time-while-in-housing sequences were right at 100 minutes. If we had time to put the camera in the water again or needed more surface shots after a dive, I'd download just the P2 cards to buy another 16 minutes. Over the course of the project, I had about 120 gigs of data per day. Every night I'd dump the P2 and Firestore to an external drive array so we could evaluate the day's shooting in FCP. Boy, do I ever appreciate being able to import .mxf files directly into FCP. It might be a pain in the field, but once you are done shooting the workflow is so much easier than dealing with a HDV camera.