hdv - sony/canon?

Hi guys, Darren here, my first visit to videoland.

I just did a nice stills job and apparantley pleased the client so much that (i have been given the heads up) at a meeting next week they are going to ask me if I shoot video.

I'm going to say "yes, of course".

Please excuse my ignorance of all things vid, but looks like I may have to buy a hdv kit, so which should I get?

darren

Why is everyone jumping on the band wagon...

Go away stills boy and give the gig to someone else...

Apart from that, fill us in a bit more on what is actually needed..and we may answer.

Dive safe

DeanB

thanks dean..... maybe i'll live to regret one of my early postings that was something about the virtues of stills over movies....but hey they asked.... the work will be periodic but ongoing, so $s are alluring.

So, broadcast quality (footage will be cut in with topside stuff shot by production company crews). I'm not editing at this stage, just supplying the raw footage.

Good quality optics- I see no sense in putting a "coke bottle" in front HDV hi res chips. Something that offers good zoom range including very wide 100+ degrees? The Gates Superwide Ports look nice, but you guys might offer other alternatives.

Sensible control placement. Some advise on pros and cons of the electronic vs manual controls would be appreciated.

A good monitor (isn't that what you guys call it?) so I can see what I'm doing.

Some reasonable manual exposure over the aperture...whoops I mean iris don't I... (I see some video that must be on "auto iris" or something and exposures go whacky when subject changes - don't like this).

I like the idea of a colour correction filters that can flip in and out. I think gates offers this, do any others?

Some lights I guess are on the cards too.

If it helps, when I migrated from analogue to digital stills I was swayed by control placement, port choices and a big easy to see viewfinder, so those are important to me in video too, I assume.

I'm sure there are other things I need to learn so your expert help is appreciated.

thanks

Well Darren

If it's a one off thing, I'd rent a Panasonic HVX200 and shoot at 1080i or 720P60. DVC Pro HD is definitely easier to transfer and to keep a copy for yourself as well. Ask your clients if they prefer 1080/50i, 1080/25P or 720P(which can be shot at 60fps for nice overcrank) . With the new 16 GB P2 cards it has broken the last barrier for a serious u/w camera, recording time.

Sony cameras tend to be more p&s so long as you know to set the AE and focus right. FX-1/Z1 are available.

The only HDV Canon housing available is for the XLH1. And I know you won't want to go there for a one-off gig.

Depending on what the assignment is, I'd forget about WB altogether if it's action shots.

I'm sorry to say this but you've really bitten off more than you can chew in buying a new system you know little about and trying to use it. We do need more details.

For rentals, Mr Mooney of Scubapix from Cairns probably has one for rent. If not, contact the housing manufacturers.

Yeah, that told you..Snapper boy...

Dive safe

Dean(keep video for videoists)B

I'm sorry to say this but you've really bitten off more than you can chew

OK maybe I'll just forget it then..

Are my stills that bad that you're convinced I have no hope of learning something new

Looks like it will be one trip every couple of months for two years, hence the thought of purchase. Thanks for the advice on the alternatives to HDV, I won't be making any decisions before talking with the production house. The idea of the faster frame rate is attractive. And renting too, I'll have a hunt around.

And I promise to do some practice before I get in the water for the client.

Maybe I'll just wait 'til the the Canon 1d MkVII comes out at 12MP/ 40 fps. will I be a videoist then, or just a very, very, very fast snapper.

cheers

darren (I'll maybe stick to stills if you resist grabbing 10MP frames of your future generation video cameras) j

Darren

Don't get me wrong. None of my business what you do. But without details of what kind of shoot it is, time constraints etc, and you coming in asking about housings and lights all at once, to me it does seem quite over whelming to deal, especially since you've said you know almost nothing about video. I apologize if I sounded harsh.

Many video shooters come from stills background. But the transition isn't always quick, especially once you get into the technical side. You have to think of tripods, pole cams, filters, diopters, how to shoot HDV vs DVCPro HD etc. Then again, I happen to know an award winning cameraman who did just that... pretended he knew how to shoot 16mm underwater and got his gig and never looked back.

Now going back to your original question, what kind of shoot is it? Action? static? Some cameras and rigs are better suited than others for certain shoots. Optics is another criteria you need to consider. Flexibility vs budget vs what is out there.

Yeah, yeah go on Drew confuse the hell out of him...

Dive safe

Dean(What the hell is he on about )B

....Now going back to your original question, what kind of shoot is it?.....

All the shooting will be in clear tropical waters, making the place look like a really nice place to visit. Mostly scenics and critters, small, medium and large, mostly shot undirected. There will be some people/marine life interaction (mostly snorkelers but some SCUBA too) that will be directed. They will draw on the footage for ongoing TV ads, of which the underwater stuff will be a part.... so periodical, ongoing work, and I can spend some time learning the gear and techniques before the contract gets started.

I've also had a conversation with another client today, he does some producing for pay TV (not u/w). He's been at me for ages to get kitted up for video, as he likes the way I work and what I produce for him. So there is potentially some work there too, as he is not happy with the guys he's been able to find here so far. BTW the production company he is working with spec the Sony Z1 as the preferred camera for topside stuff if that is useful info.

...Action? static? Some cameras and rigs are better suited than others for certain shoots.....

Given the size of some of these rigs, I can see where there may be a trade-off between desireable quality and practical use when it comes to working with fast moving action.

.....Optics is another criteria you need to consider.

My Post #3 questioned optics, as yes that is important to me, hence my reference to something like the gates superwide port or similar.

There is obviously lots to get up to speed with, and hiring first looks like a good option; however even with that as the plan I don't want to be rushing into a purchase, I'd rather be considering my options in the meantime.

thanks

darren

Dean, looks like he's determined despite our best efforts so may as well help him ...

Darren, if the customer prefers the Z1, and your budget will run to that, then check out housing options for it. Or look at the cheaper FX1 which is basically the same if you don't need XLR audio etc.. They are well proven cameras underwater now, used by a lot of posters here. At the top end the front-running housings would be Gates, Light & Motion and Amphibico, again all in use by posters here. They are all big heavy rigs though (which personally I don't mind).

Don't be too scared of the learning curve. There are stacks of controls on these housings but you can do a lot on auto while you're learning and get your head around one manual control at a time.

The Gates superwide port is going to make stuff look a long way when you're on full wide. I'm not sure a 100-degree or more superwide port would be your best choice for general use. You could go with a narrower 80-94 degree port to start with and always try a wider port later.

Hey Darren

That sounds like a great gig you got there.

More toys yippi.....

Our plans over here have changed again.......rented out our shops now Make a post soon.

thanks nick, i'm glad i'm persistent... Yes i had come to the conclusion that the FX1 / Z1 difference was the audio. thanks for the confirmation. And the wide port advice too.

wags, maybe i'll be able to come over and help you with whale shark vides too. I'll look out for the post re your plans.

darren

Darren,

Fly down to Oztek in Sydney this weekend - I have lots of HDV housings ( variety of brands ) on display .

Order a package and I will refund your flights.

P

Darren, apparently there are 40 differences between the FX1 and Z1, but many of them are inconsequential.

Apart from the audio, of significance is that the Z1 offers you a choice of 50i or 60i, so if you were looking for pro cameraman work you could offer yourself to customers from NTSC-land as well as PAL.

Another minor benefit in use underwater is that it gives a numbered readout on a scale of 0-99 of how far you're zoomed in, rather than the little slider graphic on the FX1. This is useful for a quick look to check you're zoomed right out (0) or within the focus range of your port (in my case about 70).

But the FX1 is great. Just look at what Wags has done with his.

...Apart from the audio, of significance is that the Z1 offers you a choice of 50i or 60i, so if you were looking for pro cameraman work you could offer yourself to customers from NTSC-land as well as PAL.

 

Another minor benefit in use underwater is that it gives a numbered readout on a scale of 0-99 of how far you're zoomed in, rather than the little slider graphic on the FX1. This is useful for a quick look to check you're zoomed right out (0) or within the focus range of your port (in my case about 70)....

OK Nick the PAL /NTSC abilty is attractive, as is the readout on zoom positon, I can see how this is helpful especially mid-shot. And wags...legend....

Fly down to Oztek in Sydney this weekend - I have lots of HDV housings ( variety of brands ) on display .

Order a package and I will refund your flights.

Nice offer, thanks Peter.

I'm in a much better position now than I was a couple of nights ago, thanks for the pointers, I'll now do some more specific searches and research in the forums. thanks.

All the shooting will be in clear tropical waters, making the place look like a really nice place to visit. Mostly scenics and critters, small, medium and large, mostly shot undirected. There will be some people/marine life interaction (mostly snorkelers but some SCUBA too) that will be directed. They will draw on the footage for ongoing TV ads, of which the underwater stuff will be a part.... so periodical, ongoing work, and I can spend some time learning the gear and techniques before the contract gets started.

I've also had a conversation with another client today, he does some producing for pay TV (not u/w). He's been at me for ages to get kitted up for video, as he likes the way I work and what I produce for him. So there is potentially some work there too, as he is not happy with the guys he's been able to find here so far. BTW the production company he is working with spec the Sony Z1 as the preferred camera for topside stuff if that is useful info.

Given the size of some of these rigs, I can see where there may be a trade-off between desireable quality and practical use when it comes to working with fast moving action.

My Post #3 questioned optics, as yes that is important to me, hence my reference to something like the gates superwide port or similar.

The production company probably pegged the Z1 for XLR audio, SMTPE timecode and 50i/1080i25(PAL). Of course it was also the first real 3xsensor HDV camera out. While the venerable Z1 is a good camera, it is 3 year old technology. If 50i is the format wanted, there are a few alternatives. The newer cameras like the Sony HVR-V1 and Canon XH series have better image control, 20X zoom (much better for wildlife shooting) and better details in resolution etc. Depending on your schedule, the newer cameras should have at least one major brand for housing by Jun-Aug.

Other alternatives include the HVX200, with the DVC Pro HD codec and progressive scan over crank (60fps) capability. The image quality of each of these cameras are pretty similar. The detailed resolution of the Canon, the "industry standard" look of the Sony and the saturated film like look of the HVX. For someone coming into the industry, the sony look is pretty much the safe thing. It's after a while when people start wanting a different look do they think, hey I wish I had more control over the image, which cameras like the XHA1 and HVX200 give. Things like knee control, RGB look, gamma suddenly play a great role, especially if people want the elusive "film look."

The chameleon of the trio is the HVX200, which can shoot all HD (720P, 1080i/p standards) in 4:2:2 codec. The softer (due to lower res sensors) and richer colors make it very popular for indie films and ad work.

The Canon also allows 50/60i choice with an upgrade done at the factory, and it comes in cheaper than the Z1. The sensors are just as sensitive as the Z1 but have better detail and resolution. To my eyes, it's less contrasty and doesn't blow out highlights as bad as the Sony look.

Go out and check out all these cameras and see which one you like the feel of. Ultimately you can't miss with any of them, but your own goals may make you choose one that suits you in the coming 2 years before something new comes along.

Fly down to Oztek in Sydney this weekend - I have lots of HDV housings ( variety of brands ) on display .

Order a package and I will refund your flights.

Does that include 1st class tix, Pete? I happen to know some people never travel in cattle class

The production company probably pegged the Z1 for XLR audio, SMTPE timecode and 50i/1080i25(PAL). Of course it was also the first real 3xsensor HDV camera out. While the venerable Z1 is a good camera, it is 3 year old technology. If 50i is the format wanted, there are a few alternatives. The newer cameras like the Sony HVR-V1 and Canon XH series have better image control, 20X zoom (much better for wildlife shooting) and better details in resolution etc. Depending on your schedule, the newer cameras should have at least one major brand for housing by Jun-Aug.

Other alternatives include the HVX200, with the DVC Pro HD codec and progressive scan over crank (60fps) capability. The image quality of each of these cameras are pretty similar. The detailed resolution of the Canon, the "industry standard" look of the Sony and the saturated film like look of the HVX. For someone coming into the industry, the sony look is pretty much the safe thing. It's after a while when people start wanting a different look do they think, hey I wish I had more control over the image, which cameras like the XHA1 and HVX200 give. Things like knee control, RGB look, gamma suddenly play a great role, especially if people want the elusive "film look."

The chameleon of the trio is the HVX200, which can shoot all HD (720P, 1080i/p standards) in 4:2:2 codec. The softer (due to lower res sensors) and richer colors make it very popular for indie films and ad work.

The Canon also allows 50/60i choice with an upgrade done at the factory, and it comes in cheaper than the Z1. The sensors are just as sensitive as the Z1 but have better detail and resolution. To my eyes, it's less contrasty and doesn't blow out highlights as bad as the Sony look.

Go out and check out all these cameras and see which one you like the feel of. Ultimately you can't miss with any of them, but your own goals may make you choose one that suits you in the coming 2 years before something new comes along.

Drew that's very helpful, and the type of info that makes the decision process more thorough. The over crank of the Panasonic is attractive. As suggested I'll go out and get a look at what seems to be the 3 alternatives.

darren

Opps I did forget that you are in PAL land so the HVX200E does 25P/50i/50P at 50fps not 60fps.