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Effects of the teleconverter

Started by bruceterrill ·

  • 20Posts
  • 20Replies

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Effects of the teleconverter

20 posts
  1. Hi Guys,

     

    While I have asked questions about teleconverters here before, I am still not fully conversant with all the effects of their use. I have been looking for a telephoto/zoom/macro lens that will fill in the 'old' FX range of 60-150mm for macro u/w photography. It appears that such a beast does not exist? However the zoom field can be covered with the use of a standard zoom and a teleconverter.

    Sigma lists the 28-70mm F2.8 EX DG IF on their books and when a 1.4 T/C is added to this lens it all 'adds' up to approximately 60-150mm with the added 'cropping' factor of the Nikon being at 1.5..

    This is all 'fine and dandy' and is the range that I'm looking for, however Sigma lists this lens as having a minimum focus of 13inches and a maximum magnification of 1:4.4

    I understand that using the 1.4T/C won't change the minimun focus but will shorten the depth of field. Will using the 1.4T/C bring the maximum magnification closer to 1:1?

    What else can I do to get this lens closer to 1:1 magnification?

    Will using a diopter increase the magnification as well as shortening the minimum focus?

    I think that I have read in another thread/response from Craig, that using a diopter will also shorten the working distance of the lens? This is one area of which I have no understanding ... :unsure:

    Thanks for your help fellas. You guys are great to work with... :wacko:

     

    Bruce...

  2. I think that I have read in another thread/response from Craig, that using a diopter will also shorten the working distance of the lens? This is one area of which I have no understanding ... :unsure:

    Bruce...

     

    I've got a cheap Hoya diopter set sitting around and tried it on my Sigma 18-50 f2.8. At 50mm, the +2 diopter and lens @ 50mm shortens the woking distance to just under 1 meter (topside).

     

    edit: oops forgot I had a large thread +2 diopter that will fit my 24-105mm lens. Setting that to 70mm and adding the +2 diopter, working distance is approx the same as with the 18-50mm lens + diopter. Both lenses have a significantly longer min focus length than that Sigma 17-70 macro so didn't test min focus length.

    Edited by pakman
  3. Hi Pakman,

    What brand is your 24-105mm lens?

    Would it be possible to "successfully" use this lens as a variable macro?

    I'm not after acceptable results. I would prefer 'really good' results... :unsure:

    Thanks for your replies...

    Bruce

  4. Bruce, that was the Canon 24-105.

     

    Not sure how well it would do as a variable macro lens u/w. I guess it will all depend on how much your macro port will allow you to zoom out/in without vignetting.

  5. Bruce, that was the Canon 24-105.

     

    Not sure how well it would do as a variable macro lens u/w. I guess it will all depend on how much your macro port will allow you to zoom out/in without vignetting.

     

    Hi Pakman,

    I'm not sure how the port would go, But I might have trouble hooking the lens up to my Nikon D70S.

    Thre musn't be a very big market for macro lenses around the world?

    The manufacturers seem to make one or two primes and then not worry about it... :unsure:

     

    Bruce...

  6. Hi Mike,

    I have been 'talking' with James and I am SERIOUSLY looking at this lens or the Sigma equivalent.

    The only trouble is that they were both made for FX cameras. Both can be used with the APS-C

    style sensors, but when you add in the 'cropping' factor...geez, it makes a bloody big lens; most

    of which will hardly, if ever, be used underwater... :unsure:

    I like the idea of the Sigma, in that it has internal focus AND internal zoom. This means that there

    will be no extension of the lens whatever the focus or zoom setting. It makes it a lot easier to find

    a suitable port and should eliminate vignetting...

    But the power? bloody hell, I was trying to start at around 60mm for fishie pics and then have the

    ability to zoom out to 150-180mm for some real good macro action... :wacko:

    Bruce...

  7. The apparent magnification you will get is about 1:2 without a diopter. With a diopter you will be able to get much better, perhaps even approaching 1:1 apparent. Having only 1:2 without a diopter will be an inconvenience but it's probably manageable. You could consider a permanent +1 plus a wet diopter.

     

    The teleconverter magnifies everything by a factor of 1.4 and that includes diffraction effects and inherent lens softness. The converter itself adds some optical degradation as well. Most of the effect, though, is the simple magnification of imperfections in the main lens, so if the Sigma is a good lens the result may be acceptable.

     

    The difference between this approach and the Tamron is the 60mm end. With the Tamron, the widest perspective will be 105mm equivalent. The long end of 150mm is long enough and both lenses will have similar apparent magnification without diopters, although the Tamron will have working distances too long to be useful. For DX cameras I like the idea of the Sigma better and the 13" near focus will be far easier to live with.

  8. Hi Bruce,

     

    To get back to your original question, it is normally not recommended to use teleconverters with shorter focal lengths. I believe it has to do with the curvature of the image that is projected on the sensor, which is stronger for wide angle lenses, but don't pin me down on that. Yet, on a 28-70mm zoom you may not be happy with TC results for the lower half of the range. Best try it out before buying.

    A diopter will both increase the magnification and reduce the min focus distance, but it will also decrease the max focus disance. A +1 diopter has a 1000mm focal length which means you can't focus on anything more than 1m beyond the tip of the lens (that could be a good thing as it forces you to become better in getting closer to your subject). A +2 diopter, like the Canon 500D, has a 500mm focal length which means you can't focus on objects beyond 0.5m, which may limit you more than you want to for general shooting needs.

     

    A diopter acts by reducing the effective focal length. For instance, a 100mm lens with a +2 diopter will behave as a 83mm lens. That's not all. For internally focusing lenses, focusing is done in part by reducing the focal length rather than increasing the physical length of the lens. For instance, the Canon 100mm macro lens gets 1:1 magnification at a focus distance of 31cm. Based on lens physics, 1:1 magnification means that the focus distance is exactly 4 times the focal length of the lens. So the 100mm lens has been tuned down to become a 310/4=77.5mm lens (this assumes there is a single optical element, instead of the dozen or so that are really present, so in reality it is probably a bit worse than the 77.5mm). Slap on the +2 diopter and the 100mm lens at closest focus now behaves like a 67mm lens. The good thing about diopters is they increase magnification and reduce working distance without decreasing the aperture of the lens, so an F2.8 lens is still a F2.8 lens after adding the diopter. (However, the nominal aperture is for focus set to infinity, the effective aperture is the nominal value time (1+M) where M is the magnification. So, magnifying more always causes loss of light and more challenges to focus.

     

    An alternative is to use extension tubes. By actually making the lens barrel longer you gain magnification without losing focal length. An extra bonus is that you do it without adding extra glass elements in the light path that you need to pay for and that can degrade image quality. The problem is that the impact of extension tubes depends on the focal length of the lens with less effect for tele lenses. So on a zoom the effect may be too strong at the wide angle end and not strong enough at the tele end of the zoom range. To give you an idea, adding a 12mm extension to a 60mm macro lens gives you a 1.24x magnification, whereas for a 100mm macro it increases to 1.16x, and for the Canon 180mm macro the gain is only 1.1x.

    Like diopters, extension tubes make it impossible to focus on objects that are too far away. For instance, adding a 12mm extension to a 60, 100, or 180mm Canon macro lens makes it impossible to focus beyond 43, 105 and 307cm, respectively.

     

    Getting back to the teleconverter, you gain a full 40% of magnification, so 1.4x max for a macro lens, you similarly increase the apparent focal length of the lens and the working distance range is not changed, so you can't get closer than before but you are still able to focus to infinity. The drawback is light loss and some image degradation (minor with a good quality TC). A F2.8 lens will become a F4 lens. Finally, if the image projected by your primary lens does not have very high resolution (for instance because you closed the diaphragm too much) then the TC will magnify the image but you won't get any extra detail. You could just as well have made a 1.4x crop in photoshop and save yourself the hassle, cost, and lost depth-of-field, that any of the above supermacro tricks impose.

     

    On my next trip (Red Sea in early June I hope) I want to play with extension tube combinations. The 12mm extension on my 100mm macro will give a working distance range of14-89cm in front of the lens and a magnification range of 0.12x to 1.16x, which I think is just fine. At 1x magnification the F2.8 lens behaves as a F5.6 lens, with the extension at 1.16x this becomes F6, which hopefully will still give somewhat decent autofocus, at least in shallow sunny shore diving conditions. My tube set also has 20mm and 36mm tubes so I can see how far I can, or want to, push this. (20mm working range becomes 13 to 60cm with a 1.27x magnification and 36mm give 12.5 to 38cm and 1.48x).

     

    Finally, I have a Canon 135mm F2.0L lens for land use. Its normal closest focusing distance of 95cm isn't great for UW but it would be interesting to see if the fast aperture can be exploited with TC/extension tube combinations. With a 36mm extension I'll get 37-64cm working distance and 0.27x to 0.49x magnification with still an effective F3.0 lens at the max magnification. Even with an added 1.4x TC the effective aperture at closest focus would remain a very decent F4.2, especially considering it would have a 189mm focal length. My experience is that these things always work better on paper and turn out to require a lot of patience and frustration in practice but I think it could be interesting for shy fish or fish behavior where you don't want to disturb the scene and still get decent magnification.

     

    Bart

     

    PS all numbers are based on calculations and may be off a little bit.

  9. With some lenses, extension tubes degrade the image more than diopters do. Diopters aren't automatically inferior just because they add glass to the light path. This may be counterintuitive but it has been observed. Paul has discussed this here at WP recently in the medium format thread.

     

    Extension tubes result in light loss and are harder to house than diopters. For prime macro lenses that may be OK. The overall port length with extension tubes can get large with longer focal lengths.

     

    Extension tubes work exactly the opposite of how you would like with zoom lenses. The longer the focal length, the less benefit you receive from a fixed length of extension. Since the subject is zoom lenses suitable for macro, I don't think extension tubes are an interesting part of the conversation for that reason. An extension tube suitable for an apparent 1:1 at the long end of this Sigma combination will be 35mm long and that would destroy the lens's utility at 60mm end. A diopter doesn't do that.

     

    The suitability of a teleconverter on the 28-70 has to take into consideration the DX crop. Testing is the surest way to determine that.

  10. Wow... :wacko:

    Thanks you guys. I have learnt more in 15minutes reading than I did in about 6hours of browsing on the web...it is so cool that you take the time to help out with knowledgeable explanations. I'm stoked... :unsure:

     

    The difference between this approach and the Tamron is the 60mm end. With the Tamron, the widest perspective will be 105mm equivalent. The long end of 150mm is long enough and both lenses will have similar apparent magnification without diopters, although the Tamron will have working distances too long to be useful. For DX cameras I like the idea of the Sigma better and the 13" near focus will be far easier to live with.

    Craig,

    Am I right in thinking that the 13inch near focus of the Sigma is measured from the sensor?

    If so, then that should pretty well put the focus point not far in front of the port?

     

    Thank you so much again fellas. I appreciated you taking the time to help out... B)

     

    Bruce...

     

     

    Hi Guys,

     

    For those who are looking for a link to the comparable Sigma lens;

     

    http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_al...amp;navigator=3

     

    It does look good on paper... :(

     

    Bruce...

  11. Yes, I believe so. Given that the lens is about 3.5" long the working distance won't be too bad. Because of that, I might consider only using a wet diopter with it. You will find that wet diopters will vignette badly on the wide end but will probably be OK through the middle of the zoom range on out (assuming the 1.4x converter).

  12. With some lenses, extension tubes degrade the image more than diopters do. Diopters aren't automatically inferior just because they add glass to the light path. This may be counterintuitive but it has been observed. Paul has discussed this here at WP recently in the medium format thread.

     

    Extension tubes result in light loss and are harder to house than diopters. For prime macro lenses that may be OK. The overall port length with extension tubes can get large with longer focal lengths.

     

    Extension tubes work exactly the opposite of how you would like with zoom lenses. The longer the focal length, the less benefit you receive from a fixed length of extension. Since the subject is zoom lenses suitable for macro, I don't think extension tubes are an interesting part of the conversation for that reason. An extension tube suitable for an apparent 1:1 at the long end of this Sigma combination will be 35mm long and that would destroy the lens's utility at 60mm end. A diopter doesn't do that.

     

    The suitability of a teleconverter on the 28-70 has to take into consideration the DX crop. Testing is the surest way to determine that.

     

    Amen to all of the above.

     

    Bart

  13. The Sigma and Tamron lenses look almost exactly the same. Both have a min focus distance of 100cm and similar macro repro ration of 1:3.5 or so.

     

    Cheers

    James

  14. Yes, I believe so. Given that the lens is about 3.5" long the working distance won't be too bad. Because of that, I might consider only using a wet diopter with it. You will find that wet diopters will vignette badly on the wide end but will probably be OK through the middle of the zoom range on out (assuming the 1.4x converter).

     

    Hi Craig,

    Am I right in assuming, that in this instance, that the use of the external only diopter, would be that I could use the lens under "normal" circumstances and then whack on the diopter to use it for the really close-in stuff? By normal, I mean further than one metre and by 'close-in, I am thinking a range of focus of less than one metre... Is this correct... :wacko:

     

    Thanks and... :unsure:

     

    Bruce...

  15. Hi Craig,

    Am I right in assuming, that in this instance, that the use of the external only diopter, would be that I could use the lens under "normal" circumstances and then whack on the diopter to use it for the really close-in stuff? By normal, I mean further than one metre and by 'close-in, I am thinking a range of focus of less than one metre... Is this correct... :wacko:

     

    Thanks and... :unsure:

     

    Bruce...

     

    Yes. A strong diopter like a macromate, inon, or epoque will have a far focus within a 50cm or less. It may be the case that you have very little overlap between nearest focus without the diopter and farthest focus with it. I use the Inon 330 diopter which is the weaker of the two inon ones and is weaker than the epoque. I don't know how it compares to the macromate, but I'd fear too strong a diopter in this case.

  16. Hi Craig,

    I know that you like the Nexus housing system and luckily enough, that is what I use and REALLY like.

    If I choose to use the Inon 330 lens, am I looking at a new custom port from Pete Laddell, or one of

    Athena's new port adapters for these 67mm thread lenses?

     

    http://www.athena-opt.com/kougakue.htm .....near the bottom of the page.

     

    I had an Inon 330 that I used with my old 5050 and loved it, but sold it with the camera and housing... :unsure:

    I have the Inon #3 lens, but I think that that is the same power as the 165...??

    I was hoping to be able to house this set-up in my Nexus 'Multi-port' and use the knob on the multi-port

    as the zoom control, but I think that it might be a bit too small for the multi-port...

     

    Thanks Craig,

    Bruce...

    Edited by bruceterrill
  17. I like the Nexus multiport so I'd try to stick with that. I'm sure an adapter could be found for it or made custom. The Athena ones could work and Ryan made me something similar for a Subal port recently. I'd wonder if the zoom could be controlled from the port knob. Are you intending to go strictly autofocus? If you want MF then you will REALLY want it on the port.

     

    Inon makes 2 67mm diopters, a +3 (330) and a +6 (165). The 330 is what I used and is the weaker of the two. I also tried the Epoque diopter and it was considerably stronger than the 330 though it had a smaller opening. I was more comfortable with the weaker diopter in combination with my zoom macro lens and also with my Sigma 150mm on DX. Had I been using a 105 instead I may have preferred the stronger one as others do.

     

    Before investing in the port system, I'd make sure I was happy with the optical performance of the setup. Assuming that is good, I'd also consider supporting the far end of the lens inside the port. Long, heavy lenses may want to move slightly inside the port and you must keep the lens and port properly aligned. Nexus does a particularly nice job at this with their 70-180 and Nikkor 200 solutions. Subal did it with their 70-180 port as well.

    Edited by craig
  18. Craig,

    I have the 105mm front section with the multi-port and

    it has got the insert inside it. I am assuming this is the support

    for the longer lenses that you are talking about?

    Bruce...

  19. Yes, it is. Make sure it's compatible with the Sigma lens or rig something up.

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