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Doing R&D for UW Photo Companies

Started by MikeO ·

  • 16Posts
  • 16Replies

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Doing R&D for UW Photo Companies

16 posts
  1. A post in the DSLR forum got me thinking. The original post referred to a relatively new manufacturer and the statement was made that the person did not feel comfortable "doing R&D for a new company" -- the implication being that he was leery of buying a product from a new manufacturer without an established track record. However, it caused me to think of times when I've received things from well established brands that were a bit less than I'd hoped and examples of where I'd given feedback to companies, both old and new, that has been adopted. I thought that this separate topic might make a good thread in its own right.

     

    Here is my story from the other thread:

     

    Any manufacturer that released a housing that routinely leaked would be laughed out of the industry quite quickly so I don't necessarily see floods as the most likely point of contention. However, I would submit that many of us here have, wittingly or unwittingly, been doing R&D for ALL of the manufacturers for years. Allow me an anecdote:

     

    When I bought my first digital camera, a state-of-the-art Olympus C-2020z, I also, on a whim, bought an Olympus housing to go with it. Worked pretty well but I wished it could be a bit more robust so I sent a note to Ike Brigham wondering if Ikelite was thinking of housing digicams. I got a typically curt response about why would anyone want to do that, was this digital thing ever going to really catch on, etc. I dropped it. Sure enough, Ikelite released an Ike-branded setup within a year or so to test the waters. When I upgraded my C-2020z to a C-4040z, I bought one of the very first Ikelite housings for it. The housing arrived and I was a bit horrified. Ikelite, a manufacturer who was NOT a startup, had sent me a housing with a cracked port ring, buttons that didn't line up and furthermore, all the buttons around the menu button were all the same height making it all but impossible to push any of them without pushing the others. To make matters worse, I had already sort of volunteered to review the housing and post the review here and on Digital Diver. So I got on the horn to Ike and told he he might want a mulligan on this one. I sent the housing back and it was determined that the button alignment issue had to do with how the camera had to be mounted in the housing. They fixed that. They added in buttons of different heights around the menu button. I got it back -- the port ring crack was still there! Had to take pictures of it and send it to Ike to convince him. I sent it back again and finally all was fixed. So, what's the point of my little story? Here an established vendor, whose reputation was backed up fervently by thousands of users, had designed a housing poorly and not been able to fix a fairly obvious flaw the first time around. But you know what, they made it right and just about every housing they've made since then has used the "different button height" idea I provided (or at least certainly passionately supported). Was the issue the fact that Ikelite was a new company? Hardly. The issue was that this was a new model and like any company producing a new model, there were bugs that needed to be worked out. It would be great if manufacturers could think of everything, but they often can't. And, even if they can, it may not be worth it to them to do it (having worked in the auto industry, I can attest to this as well -- car manufacturers have to decide what they can and can't afford to offer all the time).

     

    I'm sure others can attest to times that they gave housing manufacturers good ideas and saw them appear on new models. Another example -- Ikelite started offering 90-degree synch cord bulkhead fittings. Why? Not because they had a light bulb appear over their heads one day. Rather, many people got sick of having the regular one poke them in the face and suggested something needed to be different.

     

    Finally, I want to say I'm not picking on Ike here. Just giving two examples I know something about.

     

    Anyone else have a story (or two)?

     

    Mike

    Edited by MikeO
  2. Ah, the voice of reason I enjoy reading once in a while......

     

    Mike and I are friends and have dived together plus have discussed this very same thing. I, too, have voiced my "opinion" to a couple manufacturers over the years. Sometimes it's embraced, sometimes it's ignored and it does make you smile when you see a change you recommended implemented. Especially when it comes from your own years using various underwater imaging devices underwater.

     

    I also have to confess to going hot and cold on this very activity, especially in the last few years of digital's euphoric rise....When I see something so poorly thought out I want to skewer the maker, but then usually calm down and re-think why they might have done something "that way".

     

    It could be cost, it could be complexity of controls on land cameras trying to be made to work underwater (including built in lens limitations and the ports) or it could be sheer ignorance of the manufacturer not diving enough (if at all) with the stuff.......

     

    As Mike states, ask several UW photogs what they want and you likely will get 10 answers. So in all fairness an engineer trying to design a product will likely never satisfy all UW shooters.

     

    But on the other side there certainly s no shortage of good advice available out there......Those companies who don't seek it out and try to incorporate ideas will suffer at the hands of the internet commentaries!

     

    Many times I also question my own techniques or shooting habits. Being flexible and open to new ideas has paid off for me using new stuff. And over all I'm pretty happy to have equipment that allows me to go pursue image making beneath the waves :D

     

    To echo Mike's comments, many improvements on Ikelite housings come from various users, (some even from me!) and the guys there who listen. Not all are adopted but many make it to production.....And I'm glad if any of these make a new user underwater shooter happy and able to get some nice pics :)

     

    YMMV

     

    dhaas

  3. I can think of many underwater housing companies that are receptive to user feedback. Aquatica has been making continuous improvements in their housings, since they started going digital w/ the D100 housing and their compact housings. Some of the main things that I know they incorporated are that they:

    • Moved the control dials so that you can reach them from the handles
      Designed and implemented a magnified viewfinder
      Designed a port locking system
      Began offering a larger dome port

    Cheers

    James

  4. I'd agree with James that I think Aquatica (and I'd add Seacam) seem to be the two housing manufacturers that do listen to users and improve their housings as a result.

     

    Alex

  5. Feedback from users is invaluable, especially in comparison to say feedback from sales staff which is often targeted at making a 'sale' easier, this may be distinct from necessarily making the user experience any better in the long term.

     

    My job is design, though not in this (dive photo) sector, to be honest I am a bit surprised that the manufacturers are not a bit more active on this and maybe other forums - maybe they fear being accused of making a sales pitch, maybe it is just fear of an avalanche of requests (some mutually exclusive or plain impossible ).

     

    As an engineer / developer though the last thing that I would want was a customer feeling bitter that we had embraced and used 'his' great idea - it's what I try to do.

     

    Paul C

  6. I can think of many underwater housing companies that are receptive to user feedback. Aquatica has been making continuous improvements in their housings, since they started going digital w/ the D100 housing and their compact housings. Some of the main things that I know they incorporated are that they:
    • Moved the control dials so that you can reach them from the handles
      Designed and implemented a magnified viewfinder
      Designed a port locking system
      Began offering a larger dome port

    Cheers

    James

     

    I would also add to the list

     

    6" dome port

    smaller auto focus only macro port

  7. It's a funny world we live in, don't these types of issues crop up on an every day basis?

     

    The classic being, you discuss an improvement in practice / policy in the workplace and the next minute your boss is espousing it as their idea. The management books will blabber on all day about giving credit to your staff, but when it comes to the $$ and their bonus, the books go out of the window.

     

    Similarly with the feedback forms you are asked to complete every time you eat out, fly, get a train, go to a conference, etc.

     

    And don't get me on the subject of the market survey cold callers who telephone to ask me (usually on a Sunday morning or as they did last week, on a Friday at 2100hrs!!) some questions as, "it will benefit car (or insert any other 'thing') users across Europe."

     

    Actually, they can be a source of entertainment if you're prepared to ask them questions like, so how will I benefit financially for giving up 5 minutes of my time?

     

    Anyway - to get to the point, we give 'stuff' away every day without really knowing we are doing so, or maybe we do? Do you not think there is someone from Inon / Subal et al who is trawling wetpixel on a daily basis looking for the next big issue, or the next digital u/w photography need? Or maybe, to spot an emerging issue in its tracks as a means of damage control? This whole website is free market research - it and others like it are worth millions of $ in saved R&D.

     

    Inon, Subal - can you hear me?? Are you "listening?"

     

    Don't worry, I'm only using your names as they were the first ones that came into my head - I'm not angry with you for any reason, nor do I have any ideas about how to improve your product.

     

    And if you doubt the power of this site as a marketing tool just take a look at this post, if I were Pelican or AA I would be taking note of the 16000 views and over 100 negative replies.

     

    And this reply is gold, I reckon we'll see these at some point:

     

    Someone tell pelican and the rest to make stealth cases. Ones that look like normal baggage. If they already do, all well and good. If not: Copyright Dean Burman 2006

     

    As if Pelican will send Dean a cheque once they or someone else has "invented" it.

     

    As a spare time 'wanna be hack' (as some full time ones would call me) I have a phrase which I know will cause some consternation, "Keep writing until you don't suck at it and until someone is willing to pay you."

     

    Insert, taking photographs, providing data for market research, giving people good ideas, etc. instead of 'writing' and you have all the ingredients for an endless healthy debate over the rights and wrongs of earning money in this world.

     

    Bizarre place we live in huh?

    Edited by brendiver
  8. I bet 8" dome shade and new flat port system (modular) from Ikelite, came from this forum. Ah and right angle bulkhead as posted before...

  9. I bet 8" dome shade and new flat port system (modular) from Ikelite, came from this forum. Ah and right angle bulkhead as posted before...

     

    Maybe so - and if that is the case what a great result!

     

    If you really want paying for 'your' great idea then start a company and sell your own ideas.

     

    Paul C

  10. There is a difference between asking for a new feature and offering a free design improvement. I am sometimes surprised when free engineering is ignored. For example, I recently discovered that the Nikonos bulkhead feed throughs on my Aquatica housing were corroding at a rapid pace. I did a little snooping and realized that the problem is due to the fact that although the housing aluminum is protected with a sacrificial zinc anode, the strobe connector is electrically isolated from the housing and is therefore not protected. The mating Sea&Sea connector has a stainless steel nut which eventually wears through the anodize on the connector threads. When this happens there is rapid electrolytic corrosion of the aluminum. The solution is trivial. I added a ground wire to the bulkhead fitting on the inside of the housing and connected it to one of the internal screws. Problem solved. Total cost $0.50

     

    I checked on the web, and not surprisingly, I was not the only one to suffer from this problem. Most people just grease the threads and hope that the corrosion won't get any worse, which of course it does. The corrosion isn't so rapid that it renders the housing unusable; with care it will last a few years.

     

    When I relayed this design improvement to Aquatica, and suggested that they add a ground wire to their future housings, I figured I was just being nice by offering some free advice. I was unprepared by their response, which was a little schizophrenic. On one hand they denied that there was a problem, then they said the problem was due to Sea&Sea changing their connector design to use a different alloy of stainless. Finally they sent me some new bulkhead fittings to replace my damaged ones. The strange thing about this whole exchange is that it would cost them nothing to implement, and would improve their product. The only people who lose are future customers of Aquatica that have connectors that corrode too quickly. Go figure.

    Edited by drsteve
  11. I don't think manufacturers search the forums for ideas often enough nor do I think they listen to their customers nearly as much as they should. Our industry is a small one and not all companies have engineering teams as productive as we'd like. Their market research is often one guy that makes stuff that he wants.

     

    Combining the ideas of experienced users with the companies that are already in place to offer them is a win-win. Compensation comes in ways other than cash. I think there's plenty here that receive special consideration from manufacturers whether they say so or not.

     

    Suggesting that someone start their own company in order to benefit from their ideas is a cop-out though. Starting a business involves issues far, far beyond the quality of your ideas and the dive industry is known for turning a large pile of cash into a small one.

  12. Well, my intent was not to bitch about something I didn't get credit for, though I guess I could see how my post might be read that way. Rather, I just thought a discussion about how manufacturers actually use feedback might be interesting . . .

     

    Mike

    Edited by MikeO
  13. I don't think manufacturers search the forums for ideas often enough nor do I think they listen to their customers nearly as much as they should.

     

    If that is truly the case (and FWIW I think you are correct), then they are missing a major trick. If I had a concentrated resource pool like this for my day job I would be reading but no way would I contribute. So why not ?

     

    Well to be fair I have been caught out a couple of times by customers that provided feedback which got acted on then they hit on our sales guys for a discount as 'they had designed the product for us'.

     

    A no win when the sales and marketing hit back on me internally!

     

    Suggesting that someone start their own company in order to benefit from their ideas is a cop-out though.

     

    Maybe so - I for one have benefited from feedback that has been previously mentioned (90 deg bulkhead and 8" dome), so I am glad that the suggestion was made at some point. The alternative is just to shut up and keep your ideas to yourself :) - no win.

     

    Well, my intent was not to bitch about something I didn't get credit for

    I am sure it was not Mike, but it has opened up a couple of interesting issues here!

     

    For example, I recently discovered that the Nikonos bulkhead feed throughs on my Aquatica housing were corroding at a rapid pace. _cut_

     

    This is classic user feedback that needs to be embraced by the manufacturer - though note that the way that the company acted was pretty defensive - sorry, but that is down to the whole way our litigation based society is evolving, damage limitation, and probably much too big an issue for this forum.

     

    OK so maybe I can chuck a live firework in here. I think that the way that this forum is set up is not conducive to interaction between 'Industry' and 'Users'. I can see the intent - you / we / whoever does not want sales and promotion activities conducted here. Yet we would seem to want to interact with those in a position to make changes and affect design.

     

    Over the past few years there have been several posts that started along the lines of "I work for [XYZ] so declare an interest....." - shows a lot of caution - and I can also recall a couple of cases where 'industry' responses got slapped pretty hard for 'promotion' or 'selling'.

     

    Guess I don't have a solution or suggestion but was just trying to offer a view from the other side of the wall.

     

    Paul C

  14. I'd also add that many of the major housing manufacturers are not in English speaking countries. The Japanese manufacturers certainly listen to the idiosyncratic home market. Also the Austrian, Belgian and German based European manufacturers listen much more to their local photographers more than they listen to us English speakers.

     

    Alex

  15. I remember speaking to a manufacturer at a dive show and pointing out two design problems (ie specifics which probably cause actual failures) only to be politely told that to modify them would alter the ergonomics! As far as I am aware no modifications have been made and I am pretty certain that sales have dropped as a result. Other manufacturers do listen and even if they don't act are willing to consider suggestions (there are factors such as economics which probably get in the way too).

     

    I'd like to think that posts in wetpixel do get acted upon/considered by manufacturers. Certainly in the photographic industry, major manufacturers are aware of websites which review or discuss their products and will even act on information from them at times (the EOS1D and DS MkIII problems for example as well as, I suspect, the D3's firmare update problem).

     

    As someone else pointed out though, the underwater photo industry is not very big so may not be able to react as quickly.

     

    The language of business is firmly English these days (many European websites are dual language), so I can't understand why any exporting manufacturer doesn't have a grasp of what is going on worldwide!

  16. Well, it's my job to try all types of new equipment for diving and after a week or so, usually on a liveaboard, a few deficiencies get noticed.

    It is my experience that manufacturers always kick and scream and deny their product is not perfect, that is until the existing stock is sold and they can come to the market with improvements!

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