Panasonic AG-HPX170 and AGHMC-150

Sorry for being slow on the NAB reports but here is the Panasonic announcements for new camcorders. Building on the success of the Panasonic HVX200's tapeless camcorder system, Panasonic announced the AG-HPX170, a 1/3" CCD DVCPRO HD camcorder without the tape drive of the HVX200. The 13x Leica lens is 28mm at the widest, easily the widest fixed lens camcorder (the competitors float around 31-34mm).

The P2 system is a proven production codec used in broadcast. It is still unknown if the CCDs are still the same 960x540 sensors used in the HVX200, where many people complained about the resolution of the 1080i/p being poor compared to other cameras. Being CCD, it will however not suffer from rolling shutter effects, which is important for many shooters.

Panasonic AG-HPX170 Press Release

On the AVCHD front, Panasonic released a 1/3" 3 CCD camcorder, which is a mini-me version of the HPX170, using AVCHD codec and recording on SDHC and SD cards at 21mbps (max 24mbps) which nears HDV's MPEG2 bitrates. AVCHD is MPEG4 and more efficient but it was always held back by low bitrate, due to the slow speed of SD cards. Panasonic is the first manufacturer to break the 20mbps barrier. As a mini-me, it has the same 28mm wide 13x Leica lens and no tape drive. It does not do over/undercranking at 720P unfortunately but it does support 1080/24P/60i and 720P.

With AVCHD heading editing now coming around with the big editing suites, and the ability to play AVCHD on most HD players native is a boon for some shooters.

AG-HMC-150 Press Release

More news on both these cameras:

The HPX170 sensors are probably the same 960x540 sensors in the HVX200a, rated at ISO500 (on par with the EX1 at 1080p) vs the IS0320 of the older HVX200. It's also less noisy and a bit sharper. More importantly it's 1.6 lbs lighter than the HVX200 at 4.2lbs and smaller as well, which makes it an easier camera to travel with.

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/hpx170/

Hopefull housing manufacturers will support this camera as well. A super wide 28mm lens and smaller, lighter form factor with similar low light characteristics (but less overall resolution) to the bigger Sony EX1 makes for a compelling underwater travel camera.

At 1.4kg (3.1lbs) the HMC15 is the lighest 3xSensor HD camcorder yet. While shooting in AVCHD at 21mbps will mean it'll take the latest computers to playback, most NLEs convert AVCHD to faster lossless codecs for easier editing. Having seen the AVCHD at 14mbps from the SR12, I'd say AVCHD/21 should have quality that at least equals HDV. We'll soon see.

For those in PAL/SECAM land, Panasonic just announced your equivalents:

http://www.broadcastbuyer.tv/publish/Conte...ras_16850.shtml

AT 1080p/24 in the cinema type mode, I rate the EX1 at ISO400, however, shooting in normal gamma, I can rate the EX1 at closer to 800 if not a bit more. I haven't even tried interlaced.

Well Perrone, I haven't bothered to test since Adam Wilt rated the EX1 at ISO400 at 1080p (in various modes) and ISO800 in 1080i. But thanks for reminding me not to do the silly numbers comparison until the product actually ships. Pre-production models hardly tell the whole story. Hype is always what it is.

Yea, Adam Wilt's test was instrumental in my purchase, but several things have changed in th camera since that test. In his initial test he noted how poor the composite out signal was. Unusable for monitoring he said. However, after he got a shipping model, he noted it had been improved vastly.

I have done A/B comparisons of the camera with my DVX and I tend to rate them nearly the same ISO which is AMAZING considering the EX1 is pulling in a real 19020x1080 image. I tend to shoot at -3db so I have to rate my camera a bit slower But I do get a solid ISO 320 in the cinema matrix, and in normal I am getting half a stop shy or so of ISO 800. In fact, I'll set up a test now to play with it a bit.

Ok, so here's the test:

Set up stuffed Grinch in front of black foamcore background. Light with Lowel DP light on spot from 3ft away.

Set light meter to ISO 400 1/48 shutter, 24fps. Meter reads: 1270FC / F11.6 (near F16)

.. I set the camera at 1080/24fps shutter 1/48, F13, 0db gain, 3200k. Zebra set at 95%

With the same lighting, I changed the camera to 1080/24fps, 1/48, gamma at STD3 (basically the default camera setup)

.. The camera indicated proper exposure (zebras off) at F16. This is somewhat unscientific because the camera will not indicate a smaller stop than that. It hold F16 as the image gets darker and the iris finally closes. As the iris swings from F13 to F16, most of the white fringe is still in zebra. It takes about about the same distance on the iris from F11 to F16, to get the exposure correct once F16 shows. Im going to guess I'm between 25 and 32. If that's true, the camera is rating out near ISO 1200.

Ok, time for an interlaced test.

I Changed the lighting for this. Same gear but I swung the light away so we'd just get the lighting from the fringe. Meter is now reading:

~17FC/184 Lux With an indicated ISO of 800, it says I should be at F2.0.

Zebras on the camera disappeared at F4.0. My light meter indicates the closest ISO at 3200.

If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it. However, I did record it, and am about to put it on Vimeo.

[EDIT] http://www.vimeo.com/1419305

Perrone

Sorry I missed this post before. I do think your tests are improper to measure true ISO senstivity. To get a true reading, you need a video color chip chart, waveform monitor (alternatively, with extra work you can use the ones in your NLE) to set 100IRE on the white chip or the cross over chip is at 55IRE, adjusting your camera exposure to meet those numbers.

Your method of using 95% zebra on a darker background you are skewing the result by artificially pushing the white level up. I assure you that if any 1/2 sensor had ISO3200, it would not be left out of the advertising literature.

That's why I put the disclaimer on the video that I did. I wasn't trying to say that the EX1 rates at 3200. I was merely saying that in the instance I used, ISO 3200 correctly exposed my video. I may set that same test up with my DVX and see what I get.

Opps I didn't see the vid. Once I saw your methodology, I knew the results were skewed.

Spoke to Ken Stone recently and he compared the footage from the new Panasonic to the Sony EX-1 and he loved the Panny saying the footage was much more natural and not so 'video like'. The footage was shot by a Brit named Rick Young who tests most every new cam that comes out as the companies send them to him on a regular basis.

The 150 is intra and not inter and has multiple features that seem spot on. I wonder if manufacturers will make a housing for it.

Steve

Steve

Ken is mistaken since the HMC150 uses a long GOP AVCHD at 24mbps. What he may be referring to is the HPX170 which uses the DVCPRO HD codec. I've tested all 3 cameras and the HPX has lower resolution than the EX1, which translates to smoother lines and less detail, hence the less harsh contrast not so video like look. Color is also very nice. The HMC150 looks slightly better than HDV but suffers from the same long GOP busy scene detail loss and blocking, just less of it.

AFAIK, the HVX200a which has the same sensor as the HPX170, will not fit in the old HVX200 housings. None of the housing manufacturers have indicated a willingness to commit to panasonic, which is a pity.

AFAIK, the HVX200a which has the same sensor as the HPX170, will not fit in the old HVX200 housings. None of the housing manufacturers have indicated a willingness to commit to panasonic, which is a pity.

The Gates HVX200 housing has been modified and is actually compatible with the HVX200A.

The old housing are not compatible with the 200A, but the new housing is compatible with both the 200 and 200A.

The good news is that the Equinox have already an underwater housing for Panasonic HMC-150. It is a proven housing Pro8 (similar to the DVX100), named HD8. Panasonic HMC150/151 is only 4 mm higher than Panasonic DVX100 and of course longer and wider, but still HD8 housing meets. Since this equipment I use mainly on the trips I wish as easily and as low as possible.

Available will be two versions:

HD8 standard controls

HD8x (includes all the standard controls of the HD8, plus a rear mounted lcd, EO video out bulkhead and 2 special gears for manual focus and iris)

Most other manufacturers did not confirm the production of underwater housings for the HMC150. On the diving Boot Fair 2009 (Düsseldorf), the only Sealux confirmed that think in this direction. Gates is not decided.

/peter