Red filter or no filter

Hello All,

I have the Sony HC7 in a L&M Bluefin housing.Have been on 2 trips with it using the red filter and letting the camera auto wb.Not very happy with the results and am going to manually wb on the next trip.

All of the diving is in less than 10 meters.Should I use the red filter if I am manually wb the camera?

Thanks,

Michael

You probably will get a better picture with it than without. If you want to save trouble, shoot with the filter in daylight mode and color grade in post. Much easier depending on your NLE.

Hello All,

I have the Sony HC7 in a L&M Bluefin housing.Have been on 2 trips with it using the red filter and letting the camera auto wb.Not very happy with the results and am going to manually wb on the next trip.

All of the diving is in less than 10 meters.Should I use the red filter if I am manually wb the camera?

 

Thanks,

Michael

Hello Michael,

I have the HC7 with an Ikelite housing. On a recent dive trip I left the filter on all the time and MWB through the filter. My results in color were very nice and left no need for color correction.

Hope this helps-

Connie

I don't know why everyone wants to use a white slate....you want a blue tinted one as that will trick-warm the camera to make your shot look nicer with natural light shooting.

Using a white one will make it look like what you see down there, you don't want that, you want a more colourfull-warm look.

Another way is to WB without your fliter in around 6-8 meters then you can just flip your filter on once you go deeper to help.

Wags,

The HDV cam sensors tend to "over-warm" the image. That causes water to look purple. A blueish tint slate exaggerates this problem. A warmer slate (such as your hand) will cool the image to give a colorful but balanced look. Above all else, I believe you want that water blue (or aqua or slight green) based on your location and desired look.

Are you seeing different results?

Shawm

I find that using the sun for MWB is a very quick and satisfactory method, it's tunable too like wags said you can warm the image by having more water surrounding the sun in your field of view when you balance or go for a cooler image by zooming in on the sun.

always used this method and very happy with it!

Hello All,

I have the Sony HC7 in a L&M Bluefin housing.Have been on 2 trips with it using the red filter and letting the camera auto wb.Not very happy with the results and am going to manually wb on the next trip.

All of the diving is in less than 10 meters.Should I use the red filter if I am manually wb the camera?

 

Thanks,

Michael

Michael;

It's best to use HID lights (I prefer the Swiss made Keldan Luna 8), and I would throw the red filter away

and replace the filter with a diopter of the magnification you desire (if it's a drop down

"interior" red filter).

Now you have w/a and c/u. I used to think you needed a flat port for a diopter, but Edi Frommenwiler

of Pindito proved otherwise. I kinda go by what I see on the screen. It works great.

There are financial considerations, so if you can't afford the lights right now, go with the best suggestion below.

Bill Macdonald

www.youtube.com/007bmac

Michael;

 

It's best to use HID lights (I prefer the Swiss made Keldan Luna 8), and I would throw the red filter away

and replace the filter with a diopter of the magnification you desire (if it's a drop down

"interior" red filter).

Now you have w/a and c/u. I used to think you needed a flat port for a diopter, but Edi Frommenwiler

of Pindito proved otherwise. I kinda go by what I see on the screen. It works great.

There are financial considerations, so if you can't afford the lights right now, go with the best suggestion below.

 

Bill Macdonald

www.youtube.com/007bmac

One more thing I forgot to mention with the Bluefin housing, the red filter is thin and there are clearance issues

with converting over to a diopter. This is something for a tech facility to help you with. Devin at Sub Aquatic Camera

Repair in San Jose, CA and I were researching a diopter replacement due to the clearance issue, when we ran out of time.

That's why my Bluefin is strictly a back up system right now, no in water c/u conversion. That and the fact that with lights

(and monitor) attached you can't get a mask up to the viewfinder, and I prefer a viewfinder to a monitor, a more hydro-dynamic system

and precise framing. But that's just a personal preference.

If you are shooting in less than 10 meters, a red filter could present problems the shallower you get.

Another thing, SLR still shooters always seem to carry strobes (lighting), and I believe they would scoff at replacing strobes with a red filter.

Close-ups demand lighting, sexy reef and kelp forest shots employing the light rays are an exception. So why would video be different??

Bill,

What do you use for wide angle ? Filter or lights ?

Bill,

 

What do you use for wide angle ? Filter or lights ?

Ronscuba;

I have a super wide Sea & Sea X0.35 lens

Like I said, I do not use a red filter, ever

Always lights (HID)

My best performing lights are the Swiss made Keldan Luna 8

with the diffusion filter, there is no border when using two Luna 8s

nice soft transition. www.keldanlights.com

Luna 8 burn times per charge 120 minutes on high power, 180 minutes on low power

(and there are other power selections in between)

I have never had a Luna 8 run out during a dive, after charging all night.

For my L&M Bluefin I use the SUNray H.I.D., nice and reliable, and made to fit the housing

but there is a visible light border

I also have the Sea & Sea BLX (H.I.D.) and std tungsten heads for this

(heavy and too many connections - problematical)

I have a Darkbuster H.I.D., can be used topside, but it's bulky

(I am on location now, and the Darkbuster is back in CA)

it also has issues with hot spots, so I diffuse them.

I have a Green Force HID, but it is bulky, tho reliable

You can take a standard non-HID tungsten lamp and convert it to "white light"

by adding a blue gel filter, a cheap way to go for a daylight look.

Bottom line, as you can see I am well stocked with lights

and have had many headaches (non performance) and shoulder aches from dragging this stuff around u/w

Hope this helps

Bill Macdonald

www.youtube.com/007bmac

www.macdonaldproductions.com

...Another thing, SLR still shooters always seem to carry strobes (lighting), and I believe they would scoff at replacing strobes with a red filter.

Close-ups demand lighting, sexy reef and kelp forest shots employing the light rays are an exception. So why would video be different??

Bill.. you bring up an interesting point.

I come from a "still" background and for many years shot daylight balanced slide film using daylight balanced strobes to fill and to restore colors on the forground subjects. To me, these shots are acceptable, although the further background objects lacked vibrant colors the forground subjects had colors restored. I suppose its gets back to a personal preference thing. Some people may not like this look. I am an advocate of restoring lost colors by the process of "bringing down the light with you" if at all possible.

Bill.. you bring up an interesting point.

 

I come from a "still" background and for many years shot daylight balanced slide film using daylight balanced strobes to fill and to restore colors on the forground subjects. To me, these shots are acceptable, although the further background objects lacked vibrant colors the forground subjects had colors restored. I suppose its gets back to a personal preference thing. Some people may not like this look. I am an advocate of restoring lost colors by the process of "bringing down the light with you" if at all possible.

Wolfeeldiver,

The bottom line: does what you see on the screen, esp in HDV, please you? If not then how do you improve? Video is usually more demanding than stills in terms of post (production).

Many of the videographers I see along the way are not properly equipped, and they are spending much time & $$ getting to choice locations.

Good lights are a must for video, not an if in my book, and since you have subjects large and small, you must be prepared to capture both during

your time underwater.

Further, it amazes me that the are clueless when it comes to editing and logging. Patience is the rule of thumb, and to me it applies not only to working with subjects and critters, schools of fish, etc. u/w but in working with your clips and editing. Shooting video for playback with family and friends is one thing, but putting together a program for an audience of peers is quite another. Having said that, I think that there is much need for video shooters to

communicate ocean stories and to promote marine awareness. In short, there are stories to tell. So shooting is just the start of a long process if you wish to tell good stories. We all have our unique perspective.

Shine a Light!

Bill Macdonald

www.youtube.com/007bmac

www.macdonaldproductions.com

www.macdonalddesign.com (My son Dustin's site)

Not all still photographers scoff at using filters. Filters enable us to create different looks and get shots that are otherwise impossible. That is true for still as well as video.

Bill, I hope you aren't suggesting that your 1600 lumen Luna 8 lights are sufficient for all video shooting that's worthwhile. When I did video, my daytime lights were 16 thousand lumens (times 2) and were still only good for about 4 feet of reach. I agree that the value of great lights cannot be overstated, either still or video, but 1600 lumens doesn't go too far in eliminating the usefulness of filters. Learn to shoot both, possibly even at the same time.

Not all still photographers scoff at using filters. Filters enable us to create different looks and get shots that are otherwise impossible. That is true for still as well as video.

 

Bill, I hope you aren't suggesting that your 1600 lumen Luna 8 lights are sufficient for all video shooting that's worthwhile. When I did video, my daytime lights were 16 thousand lumens (times 2) and were still only good for about 4 feet of reach. I agree that the value of great lights cannot be overstated, either still or video, but 1600 lumens doesn't go too far in eliminating the usefulness of filters. Learn to shoot both, possibly even at the same time.

Craig;

True enough! I am not suggesting these lights are good for all scenarios. And I am very open to suggestions, and perhaps combinations would work better. Which filter(s) would you suggest that would help attain the best color?

Over the years I have tried many u/w lights, and each time there seemed to be issues. In 16mm film days (70's) we used to have giant battery

tubes (32V)strapped to our tanks and used aircraft landing lights @ 450 Watts, but they were very heavy, and you lost hydrodynamics. But I was younger then and now I want gear small enough to carry on flights. When I got into video I was a fan of Elwin Gates' housings, and still am. But he never came out with lighting packages, so I tried many systems. Many lighting packages came and went (some discontinued due to safety issues) and we were often left holding the bag. Now that I dive primarily in clearer water, save for Lembeh, I enjoy the fill light look. The Luna 8 lights are perfect for me, powerful enough for my needs, no hot spots with diffusion and ideal for the Lembeh critters. There are no connections and the burn times are 120 - 180 minutes, enough for 3 dives. There are no wires or battery pack mounts or thru hull connections. The workmanship is, well, Swiss like. I have had well over 100 hours each with Luna 8's and no issues besides bulb replacements. Easy to mount on The Ultra Light arms with StiX floats.

Otherwise w/o lights and just a cc filter, video looks kinda flat to me. And I have seen and heard the groans from folks on a trip who are unsatisfied

with their cc filter results.

BTW: what lights did you use with 16,000 lumens x 2? Burn times? Weight?

Thanks!

Shine a Light

Bill Macdonald

www.youtube.com/007bmac

Thanks for the replies Bill. I asked because I've been shooting W/A with a filter. As long as I do a manual white balance, the colors look good enough for me. I'm just a hobbyist and my audience is primarily friends and family.

I use lights for closeups or low light shots. I didn't think the current light offerings were powerful enough for wide angle w/o a filter.

Thanks for the replies Bill. I asked because I've been shooting W/A with a filter. As long as I do a manual white balance, the colors look good enough for me. I'm just a hobbyist and my audience is primarily friends and family.

 

I use lights for closeups or low light shots. I didn't think the current light offerings were powerful enough for wide angle w/o a filter.

Ronscuba;

Since you have lights, here's a cool thing to try with wide angle.

It has to do with framing.

Find a nice w/a pov near a rock or reef with a splash of color

Frame the shot with the edge of the frame near the reef

Shine the light on then close "colorful edge", (best with the wide screen)

You can use a feather star, sponge, tunicate, anemone, whatever for color

with the main pov or action (like your dive buddy) in the central background

Could be fun

Shine a Light!

Bill Macdonald

www.youtube.com/007bmac

There are a number of articles on filters as they are an ongoing topic of conversation. There's also an older article on filter basics. To make a long story short, flourescents are the best filters to use. The cooler ones (purple) work best in green water and the warmer ones (orange) are better for blue water. UR Pro makes popular ones but they aren't really different from flourescent filters you can buy for less. UR Pro filters are more readily available in interesting sizes though. Keep in mind that filters work the same way for still and video both.

There's an article on lighting that's pinned also. That's worth a read.

As for my 16K lumen lights, they were a custom light set I designed and had built. The light heads were from WaterVisions out of Canada. They're unique in that they offer an incredibly smooth, 180 degree field. I modified them to make them lighter and to take a 1" ballhead directly. The battery packs were carried on backplate-mounted cylinders. Each pack was NiMH, 25V 4.5A and was capable of 3C discharge. I dove with either 2 or 4 of these packs (using short or long cylinders) giving me the ability to power up to 1200W for 15 minutes or 800W for 25. The most I used was 2 x 400W using 40 l/w Xenophot 24V bulbs. I also had light heads with 2 bulb sockets each and I carried 50W, 100W, 150W, 250W, and 400W 24V bulbs. The final piece was a switchbox that hung on my chest. This allowed me to eliminate the dangerous switches in my high-powered battery canisters and allow me a convenient place to control the lights. Bouyancy with 4 batteries was around 12 pounds negative but was carried by the backplate and was easy to dive. The camera rig itself was neutral. Travel weight including 10 batteries and redundant chargers was around 60 pounds for the lights alone if I recall correctly.

These days, carrying that much light through airports might be too much trouble especially in light of the much improved HID and LED lights today. I agree that using lights for 100% of shots is viable if everything is shot close but that's not going to work for a lot of storyboards. The difference in usefulness between 1600 lumens and 16000 lumens is less than you think! It's hard to outpower the sun.

If I were pursuing video today, I would be taking an approach similar to what I am doing with wide angle stills. I'd be using HID or LED most likely, I would want light heads that were filterable, and I would choose light filters and lens filters in combination that would be useful whether the lights were used or not. I believe that is doable but it takes some planning. Think of using either a green water filter or a simple magenta CC filter on the lens, then add a green filter to the lights (and maybe some cooling depending on the light), and then manual white balance each time the lighting changed. With still, I now use strobe filters 100% of the time with wide angle and I am looking into permanent installation on the strobes (even for macro).

There are two main differences between video and still. First, obviously, is that it is far easier to carry a high power strobe than high power lights. Second, ignoring the RED, video guys don't have access to raw sensor data so it becomes crucial to get white balance close at time of capture. Lens filters can help tremendously with that. Still guys, since they are shooting higher resolution and have a lot more artificial light, tend to be negative on filters but a lot of that is carry-over from film. Digital is different!

There are a number of articles on filters as they are an ongoing topic of conversation. There's also an older article on filter basics. To make a long story short, flourescents are the best filters to use. The cooler ones (purple) work best in green water and the warmer ones (orange) are better for blue water. UR Pro makes popular ones but they aren't really different from flourescent filters you can buy for less. UR Pro filters are more readily available in interesting sizes though. Keep in mind that filters work the same way for still and video both.

 

There's an article on lighting that's pinned also. That's worth a read.

 

As for my 16K lumen lights, they were a custom light set I designed and had built. The light heads were from WaterVisions out of Canada. They're unique in that they offer an incredibly smooth, 180 degree field. I modified them to make them lighter and to take a 1" ballhead directly. The battery packs were carried on backplate-mounted cylinders. Each pack was NiMH, 25V 4.5A and was capable of 3C discharge. I dove with either 2 or 4 of these packs (using short or long cylinders) giving me the ability to power up to 1200W for 15 minutes or 800W for 25. The most I used was 2 x 400W using 40 l/w Xenophot 24V bulbs. I also had light heads with 2 bulb sockets each and I carried 50W, 100W, 150W, 250W, and 400W 24V bulbs. The final piece was a switchbox that hung on my chest. This allowed me to eliminate the dangerous switches in my high-powered battery canisters and allow me a convenient place to control the lights. Bouyancy with 4 batteries was around 12 pounds negative but was carried by the backplate and was easy to dive. The camera rig itself was neutral. Travel weight including 10 batteries and redundant chargers was around 60 pounds for the lights alone if I recall correctly.

 

These days, carrying that much light through airports might be too much trouble especially in light of the much improved HID and LED lights today. I agree that using lights for 100% of shots is viable if everything is shot close but that's not going to work for a lot of storyboards. The difference in usefulness between 1600 lumens and 16000 lumens is less than you think! It's hard to outpower the sun.

 

If I were pursuing video today, I would be taking an approach similar to what I am doing with wide angle stills. I'd be using HID or LED most likely, I would want light heads that were filterable, and I would choose light filters and lens filters in combination that would be useful whether the lights were used or not. I believe that is doable but it takes some planning. Think of using either a green water filter or a simple magenta CC filter on the lens, then add a green filter to the lights (and maybe some cooling depending on the light), and then manual white balance each time the lighting changed. With still, I now use strobe filters 100% of the time with wide angle and I am looking into permanent installation on the strobes (even for macro).

 

There are two main differences between video and still. First, obviously, is that it is far easier to carry a high power strobe than high power lights. Second, ignoring the RED, video guys don't have access to raw sensor data so it becomes crucial to get white balance close at time of capture. Lens filters can help tremendously with that. Still guys, since they are shooting higher resolution and have a lot more artificial light, tend to be negative on filters but a lot of that is carry-over from film. Digital is different!

Craig;

Thanks for the reply. It is an interesting subject, and to apply filters as a trial is certainly not a budget buster, so I will give it a whirl.

My next expedition is in Lembeh for its bizarre denizens and not blue water, so it gives me a chance to research this further. As you said

there is a series of discussions already posted. As a newbie to Wetpixel forums I am gaining a deeper understanding as what this site offers.

The lighting package you described certainly was a serious system. I am beyond lugging large systems, and altho I own an FX-1 HDV, I will

not house it for diving. The system I have is bulk enough and the airline restrictions will not get any easier for photo-divers. I am sold on my

Luna 8 Keldan lights, and have a way to employ them in super wide angle (I cheat). I light the foreground as a frame, switching from right to

left in different shots and mostly employ soft corals or feather stars for the color, while the subject or scene action is going on in the background.

This gives the viewer / audience more eye candy. But that's just the style I have adapted. Edi Frommenwiler on Pindito was my mentor in this, so

I cannot take credit for its creation. He's the best underwater shooter I currently dive with, and has the facilities (vessel), location (Raja Ampat),

knows and shares the secret spots with me, can find the critters, and can capture subjects both large and small on the same dive. However, he is

able to do this on a daily basis whilst his crew and dive masters cater to the guests. I don't recall him using filters tho.

In my original post regarding still photographers, I was trying to say I didn't think they would use red filters instead of strobes. But you were right

to advise me on their positive application, so I will give it a whirl after additional research. Thanks again. Who says you can't teach an old sea dog

new tricks!!!

Shine a Light!!

Bill Macdonald

www.youtube.com/007bmac

www.macdonaldproductions.com

www.macdonalddesign.com

...In my original post regarding still photographers, I was trying to say I didn't think they would use red filters instead of strobes. But you were right to advise me on their positive application, so I will give it a whirl after additional research. Thanks again. Who says you can't teach an old sea dog

new tricks!!!

Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your experience here. Such sharing in this forum is of value to a newbie video shooter like me.

The more I learn.. the more I reliaze I have more to learn...

Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your experience here. Such sharing in this forum is of value to a newbie video shooter like me.

 

The more I learn.. the more I reliaze I have more to learn...

Hello everyone,

I want to thank you all for your replys to my original post.

I am currently in Hawaii shooting video of sea turtles and am very happy manually white balancing the camera with the red filter as well as manually adjusting the exposure.Have not taken the lights underwater yet but am very pleased with the results that I am currently getting.

Again thank you al for your input.