dSLR vs. advanced P&S - pros & cons?

All,

I am interested in doing more UW photo. I am an "experienced amateur" photographer on dry land, and I currently use a Canon EOS 20D but I will probably upgrade to the new 5D MkII in the next 6 months. My plans were to either keep the 20D as a backup or replace it with a Canon G10. I am looking at set-ups for UW photo, and am considering my options between the 20D and the G10. My uw photo experience is limited to one series of dives with the Olympus SP350, and I was frustrated by the camera. Some of the frustration is inherent to the P&S (shutter lag), others are aleviated in more recent & advanced models (flash).

In both cases I would use a similar set-up, i.e., a housing, and 1 arm + strobe + flash sync cord.

I would like to understand a little bit better the pros & cons of those two approaches. Obviously, the SLR set-up is more expensive and it has the potential of making higher quality photos. I suppose the SLR set up is bulkier. I know my 20D pretty well, and it has some superb features - E-TTl, etc - and lenses, and I don't think I will find myself limited with it for a very long time underwater. A compact camera would be nice and easy to have out of the water. Beyond that, I'm at a loss. So here are my questions:

1 - What accessories are needed for the SLR vs. the P&S set ups? Special UW lenses for the p&s for example? Anything else?

2 - What major functions of the camera are not available in the housing? E.g., zooming, E-TTL, etc? Generally, which of the 2 set up is more flexible and why?

3 - The 20D is an older camera. Does it mean that the housings for it might be available for considerably less than they would for a more recent SLR? Or is the problem the other way round?

4 - Any other major pros / cons of the 2 set-ups?

Many thanks!

JD

I have a couple of Nikon D200 that I use underwater and a Canon G9. Each can shoot RAW files. I believe if you don't shoot RAW you are missing the point of digital photography!

1 - You will need an ancillary flashgun and almost certainly a wide-angle lens. Lenses have a narrower angle-of-view underwater than in air.

2 - All functions should be available.

3 - Get a cheap second-hand housing for your 20D.

4 - Cons:

Disadvantages of DSLR:

Weight & Bulk

Cost

You need to decide if you want to shoot macro or wide-angle before you dive.

Disadvantages of a compact:

The delay before capturing the moment.

The delay in writing to the recording medium after.

If you want to capture the moment you'll need the DSLR.

So much as I would prefer to carry a little compact I am condemned to travel with a minimum of 15kg of kit.

As John said it depends very much on what you want from your system. An dSLR will give you all the power and settings, but is more expensive, heavier and bulkier (quite a bit so on all 3 items). A good P&S (like the G10) will give you most of the dSLR power without the bulk and cost. I shoot a 20D and a SD630, depending on diveplan. The SD630 is nice, because it fits in my BC pocket and so I can take a snapshot whenever I like, however it does not have raw capabilities and post-processing is a bit tricky.

As for your questions:

1. Minimum: Strobe, sync-chord for both, an external WA lens for the P&S. Better: 2 strobes and sync-chord

Keep in mind that for the dSLR you will need the housing and then an assortment of ports for the various lenses you plan to take down. The P&S will need only the housing.

2. Pretty much all the buttons are available through the housing on both the dSLR and the P&S. Some more esoteric functions are not, e.g. the print button.

- E-TTL is only available with Ikelite, while regular TTL is done by most all manufacturers (though not with Canon's G10 uw housing!).

- Overall optical flexibility goes to the dSLR for obvious reasons. However, the P&S has the edge imho in underwater flexibility simply because you can stack wet-lenses on and get a wider zoom range. You will have to chose your lens and therefore your subjects pre-dive with a dSLR. One issue with P&S is that you simple cannot get a small dof simply due to the optics used. The dSLR is far superior for macro shots in my book.

3. New housings all cost about the same. The manufacturers do not discount much unless the camera is really old (housings for the 20D are still in production). You will find more used housings for older cameras, though.

4. Travel is the one big (!) headache with a dSLR. The other one is simply the cost. While you can easily stick a G10 and a strobe in your carry-on, the same is a lot more difficult with the dSLR (see other threads around here). In the end it comes down to personal preference. If you are accustomed to a dSLR topside, you will want that uw. If you are happy with a G10 like P&S, it will provide excellent service diving as well.

Thanks Sergio - very good summary, I appreciate the time you spent writing it.

I wrote the original post before understanding the whole port issue for dSLRs. Obviously, it makes things a bit more complicated / expensive. It seems like the dSLR solution only works for dedicated diving trips but is probably too big a commitment in terms of baggage for dive + topside tourism trips.

One more question - how do you zoom with a dSLR in a housing, say on a lense like the EF-S 10-22mm?

One more question - how do you zoom with a dSLR in a housing, say on a lense like the EF-S 10-22mm?

Most housing/port systems have a mechanism that allows you to zoom. The exact way it is done depends on the brand of housing.

I use Ikelite housings with Nikon cameras. The housing comes with a clamp that fits around the zoom ring on the lens. A sleeve fits over the clamp and when the sleeve turns so does the zoom ring. The sleeve fits into gears on the housing so that when you turn a knob on the housing, it turns the sleeve which allows you to zoom the lens in or out. See: http://www.ikelite.com/downloads/instructi..._and_Sleeve.pdf

This system will work on any zoom lens that has a zoom ring that works by turning. Push/pull zoom lenses won't work.

Thanks Andrew.

Hi J,

Keep in mind that you'll still need "add on" lenses to make decent photos with a compact camera. Forget wide-angle without a $350 add-on lens for example. That's about the same cost as an Aquatica wide-angle port for example.

Through advances in electronics (thank Matthias and Roger at Ikelite) almost every DSLR housing can be fitted with an eTTL circuit now. So that's not a comparison factor.

I'm with John Bantin on this one - you can get a hell of a deal on a used 20D housing right now. If you get one of the more compact units (Aquatica, Subal, etc) then it won't even be much bigger to pack than an Ikelite housing for your G9.

What you'd need:

1 Housing

2 Wide Port

3 Macro Port

4 2 or 3 extension rings and zoom gears

5 Strobe

6 Strobe Cord

7 Strobe arm

To make great underwater photos you'll have to buy items 5-7 for either system.

Hope this helps,

James

Thank you James.

I'm a bit warry of buying used housings...

No need to be.

You can always have the seller send it back to the manufacturer before it comes to you. Get it checked out and refurbished/pressure tested if necessary. I've bought 2 used housings and that's what I did.

Cheers

James

[...] It seems like the dSLR solution only works for dedicated diving trips but is probably too big a commitment in terms of baggage for dive + topside tourism trips. [...]

There is quite a bit of bulk to carry if you want to do topside travel. If you are staying at one hotel and doing day trips, all is well. Otherwise, yes there is an extra suitcase to lug around.

A word on the cost. Once you decide to dive with a camera, you are already talking serious money. There is no cheap way to go about this. It is just too much fun, though.

To summarize a couple potential configurations for the cameras you mentioned, here are a some systems that I have used or had close contact (buddies) to. Note that all strobes will require a set of arms to mount then to the housing and appropriate sync-cords.

P&S route:

"Cheapest": SD630(-like) + Canon Housing + Sea&Sea YS-27: No raw, very compact!, less than $1k

"Low end": G10 + Canon Housing + Inon D-2000 : Raw + TTL (sort of, but works well), still quite compact

"Middle": G10 + Ikelite Housing + DS-51 + W/A lens : Raw + eTTL

"High end": G10 + Ikelite Housing + DS-125/160 + W/A lens : As good as it gets with a P&S

dSLR route:

"Low end": 20D + Ikelite Housing + 2 Ports + DS-125/160 : Bare minimum for dSLR

"Middle": 20D + Ikelite Housing + 3 Ports or 8" dome with extenders + 2x DS-125/160 : You'll upgrade quickly to here

"High end dSLR": 20D + Aquatica/Subal (Al housing in general) + Dome with extenders + 2x DS-125/160 : More compact and more robust than Ikelite, but also pricier

JDelage,

I was in the same boat as you last year: I'd had some rewarding experiences with a P&S, then bought a 20D, and so it seemed like a natural progression to house the 20D and start taking it underwater. Lo and behold, someone advertised a used Ikelite rig (with extra 20D body, DS-125 strobe, charger, spare battery, sync cord, Pelican case, a port, arm, etc.) here on Wetpixel, and at a great price. So, I pounced. A little more than a year later—and another $1500 in lenses and ports later—here are my thoughts:

1. This is an expensive hobby, and if I'd been a little more realistic about how often I actually dive, I doubt I would've put so much money into a DSLR system for underwater use. Diving no more than a few weeks a year means that this expensive gear doesn't get much use, which is a bummer, but it also means that my skills are always less than what they need to be to actually harness my set-up's powers. Would I be better of with an easier-to-use and less-expensive P&S set-up?

2. Hauling a DSLR housing set-up around can result in extra costs for baggage and extra scrutiny from customs and airline staff. (Thieves pay more attention, too.) Again, the more you dive on a trip, the more bang you're getting for this effort. And the more often you get good photos, the more glad you'll be that you hauled around a big Pelican case. When a trip doesn't involve as much diving as you'd hoped, that heavy Pelican case feels pretty silly.

3. I'm very glad that I bought a used set-up rather than brand new stuff, because I saved at least $1200 in doing so. Whatever ambivalence I have about the investment I made, it would have been much greater had I bought newer gear or a more expensive camera body. And I have had no problems whatsoever with my used gear. (Ironically, it was a brand new Tokina 10-17 that had problems, but Tokina fixed it.) Do not fear a used housing.

4. Like you, I figured I could make do with just one strobe. Sometimes one has seemed like enough (especially for macro), but if I were you I'd think about using two strobes instead of one.

Anyhow, just a few thoughts from someone who made the leap.

-Dan

Tonga 2008 & Misc.

Thank you. Boy, you have some amazing pictures there, I especially like the Tonga over/unders. They are very different but also well composed.

Yes, I understand now that whatever route I choose it's going to be expensive. I can justify the cost if I use my stuff regularly; history suggests that I'm not diving enough to justify that cost, but I sure would like that to change.

...and with a compact P&S in its little housing you can swim faster than the guys with big camera rigs so you can get to the subjects quicker and chase them off if need be!

(Am I bitter?)

here are a some systems that I have used or had close contact (buddies) to. P&S route:

"Cheapest": SD630(-like) + Canon Housing + Sea&Sea YS-27: No raw, very compact!, less than $1k

"Low end": G10 + Canon Housing + Inon D-2000 : Raw + TTL (sort of, but works well), still quite compact

"Middle": G10 + Ikelite Housing + DS-51 + W/A lens : Raw + eTTL

"High end": G10 + Ikelite Housing + DS-125/160 + W/A lens : As good as it gets with a P&S

Hi Sergio,

Not a bad recommendation but, I doubt that you have either used/seen used the 'just released' Canon G10,

let alone the Ike housing for it, that hasn't been released yet. . . .

Bruce...

Not a bad recommendation but, I doubt that you have either used/seen used the 'just released' Canon G10,

let alone the Ike housing for it, that hasn't been released yet. . . .

Sorry, the camera/housing I had in my hands was the G9 and I expect the G10 and the Ikelite housing to life up to it and Canon to make their own compact housing. Should have stated that clearly. My fault, thanks for pointing it out!

.