Looking for these features in a P&S + housing...

I currently shoot a Canon s70 in a Canon housing, with no external flash. I want to leave my DSLR on dry land and upgrade my UW P&S rig, but I am having a hard time finding a camera and housing combo with these features. I may just be out of luck for now!

28mm lens (yeah I know it's more like 35mm under water without a dome port, that is OK)

Factory or other inexpensive housing (I can budge on price for the right setup though)

Housing allows internal flash to work (critical, I do not want an external strobe to be a requirement)

Shoots HD video clips (720p would be OK) (critical)

RAW stills (critical)

Good low-light performance (critical. I like available-light photos, even under water. The noise in ISO 400 images from my s70 is pretty awful, because it is an old camera.)

No requirements to change ports to change from macro to WA. (critical)

There are some nice cameras and housings out there but they all seem to fail my criteria in some way.

LX3: housings are expensive; if I went for one anyway, internal flash unusable.

SX1 IS: Ikelite housing also requires a strobe

G10: No HD video

The new Fuji ex200 (?) seems nice, and will have a factory housing, but... no raw!

Panny TZ5 - no raw.

Are there any other cameras I have missed?

Another option is to buy a decent strobe for my current crummy camera, which will give me better flash pics to enjoy until "the right" new P&S is released, I guess.

Thanks for your thoughts.

The Canon website says your camera will shoot RAW, if I read it correctly.

Search for +canon +hack on this website to find hacks for RAW on Canon camera's.

Your camera will shoot 28 mm already.

7.1 megapixels is not bad.

An external strobe fired by fiber optics would seem a natural extension of your setup and a good addition to future P/S camera setups. I have used Inon and Sea & Sea and both worked well but they are not the only choices.

I would encourage you to consider your camera not 'crummy' and add as good an external strobe as you can afford. With additional lighting, you might be surprised how well your camera can work.

I think you will find shooting ISO 400 in a P/S is overly optimistic. The technology is just not there yet.

I want to be better paid and better looking. If you insist on all your goals in a P/S camera, I think I will meet my goal before you meet yours. Not trying to be overly cheeky, just putting it perspective.

Just getting in my 2 cents,

Dave

Shoots HD video clips (720p would be OK) (critical)

Is HD video in a p+s camera really all that the marketing would have you believe?

You've got a small lens with a small depth of field at wide open aperture, with a small, very densely packed sensor that is not optimised for video capture, in a small box which (from p+s video I've seen) is difficult to hold still enough to give watchable footage, not to mention the relatively small storage capacity, and questions over how long the camera can shoot without taking a break because the data transport between sensor and memory card got clogged.

I'm sorry, but I can't see the point of HD video footage in a p+s camera.

It sounds like you want to avoid a cumbersome rig, so I can understand your reticence about external strobes. If you don't dive in beautifully clear water, however, external strobes are pretty much the only way I can think of if you need artificial illumination and don't want backscatter. Basically, you need to be able to put the light source as far as possible away from the camera's lens axis.

Finally, wanting to avoid changing ports to go from macro to WA: again I can understand a desire for simplicity and no need to change things underwater, however the achievability of the goal will depend on how close and how wide you want to go.

Taking all your requirements into account does pretty much eliminate every camera I can think of. I too am currently sticking with my S70, although I do have wide angle lenses for it, as well as strobes....

If you do find a camera that ticks all (or even most) of your list, please tell us about it!

regards

Thanks for your replies.

I am usually the guy saying the same things--you can't get everything you want! But I should have made it more clear, I am not looking for perfection at this size and price point--just a good upgrade in a couple of areas, and not going backwards in the others.

I don't want crystal clear ISO 400. I know that is unreasonable in a P&S. But I do want ISO 400 that better than that in my s70. Heck, even a cleaner ISO 200 would be nice. And it's out there.

Likewise, I know what I can realistically expect from a consumer P&S shooting 720p video. I have seen the samples, and they are a heck of a lot better than the 320x240 clips I can get from my current camera. It doesn't have to be broadcast quality.

As to macro/WA, I am happy with the capabilities of my S70 and the factory housing in this regard. I just don't want a step back. Likewise with raw shooting, which I always use.

So I think we are actually pretty close to having a camera that would be really great for me. The G10 with better video, or the LX3 in a housing that allowed use of the internal flash would both do it.

The S70 isn't really a crummy camera, of course, I have just become frustrated by a couple of its limitations. I'd also like to reap the benefits of new cameras faster operating speed and AF.

But if there isn't yet a camera that nails my personal product matrix, then I guess adding a strobe that I can also use with the next camera is the best upgrade at this time. Which strobe is a question for another forum.

I, for one, vote that you should buy a strobe. I understand enjoying available light photography, but underwater the available light is third rate at best. A strobe is the best thing anybody can do to mprove their photos.

Would you be willing to sacrifice the 'wide' 28mm requirement for something with a narrower bottom range, if you could get a camera/housing that accepts an external wet wide-angle lens attachment? That's another opportunity for compromise.

I have been using the Canon SD960 IS camera for a week now and I am very very impressed. It has most of the features you are looking for except RAW, but that is certainly to change in the near future thanks to the CHDK hacks.

The camera is tiny with a 2.8" LCD screen and has a 28mm lens. The startup time on this camera is as close to instantaneous as I have ever seen on a P&S. The controls are pretty simple and it is easy to maneuver through the menu system. Ikelite's new ULTRAcompact housing is superb (Thanks Dave Haas!) -- compact enough to fit in some BC pockets and the buttons are a lot better than their older housings (IMHO).

What most intrigued me about this camera was its 720P video capabilities. Beyond what others might speculate, the video coming out of this small P&S is superb. Sure its small and hard to hand hold (I recommend a tray and arm), although the optically stabilized lens certainly helps, but if you get yourself a little tripod setup for it you'll take care of that issue all together.

I love the fact that you can adjust the exposure compensation on the video so as to avoid washing out the video in bright sunlight. The MOV H.264 video format is great for editing without the need to render it when importing it into FCP. Best of all, it has what none of the digital SLRs with HD video capabilities have... AUTOFOCUS! Now it's not a HD video camera in any way, but all I can say is I am very impressed with what Canon has crammed into this tiny camera. It's a REAL pocket camera!

You can download a sample underwater video I just took today from my web site: http://www.TheLivingSea.com/videos/960hd.mov (~60MB).

My only gripe about the camera is the short battery life. If you're doing a lot of video I would recommend swapping batteries in between dives.

I have been using the Canon SD960 IS camera for a week now and I am very very impressed. It has most of the features you are looking for except RAW, but that is certainly to change in the near future thanks to the CHDK hacks.

 

The camera is tiny with a 2.8" LCD screen and has a 28mm lens. The startup time on this camera is as close to instantaneous as I have ever seen on a P&S. The controls are pretty simple and it is easy to maneuver through the menu system. Ikelite's new ULTRAcompact housing is superb (Thanks Dave Haas!) -- compact enough to fit in some BC pockets and the buttons are a lot better than their older housings (IMHO).

 

What most intrigued me about this camera was its 720P video capabilities. Beyond what others might speculate, the video coming out of this small P&S is superb. Sure its small and hard to hand hold (I recommend a tray and arm), although the optically stabilized lens certainly helps, but if you get yourself a little tripod setup for it you'll take care of that issue all together.

 

I love the fact that you can adjust the exposure compensation on the video so as to avoid washing out the video in bright sunlight. The MOV H.264 video format is great for editing without the need to render it when importing it into FCP. Best of all, it has what none of the digital SLRs with HD video capabilities have... AUTOFOCUS! Now it's not a HD video camera in any way, but all I can say is I am very impressed with what Canon has crammed into this tiny camera. It's a REAL pocket camera!

 

You can download a sample underwater video I just took today from my web site: http://www.TheLivingSea.com/videos/960hd.mov (~60MB).

 

My only gripe about the camera is the short battery life. If you're doing a lot of video I would recommend swapping batteries in between dives.

The SD990is is worth looking into as well, for similar reasons. You trade the 28mm lens (recall you can always add on wetmount WA lens... a much more viable option with 35mm lens since they're not as bloody expensive) for a faster camera with MANUAL controls. Huge win, there.

You can use the Ikelite case (my preference) or the Canon OEM case. (most likely)

Thanks for the heads up Laz. I gave away my SD700IS so I'm looking for a replacement. The 960 sure looks good! I think I'll get the pink one :-P

Cheers

James

Thanks for the replies. I happened to check the forum today and noticed them... it had not emailed me, for some reason.

Would I sacrifice built-in WA for wetmount WA? Yes, probably. There are some great new ideas here, thanks.

The video from the 960 looks swell! I don't expect a full HD video camera in a P&S, but that is the kind of quality that would do for me.

Wow... that Ike compact case is pretty affordable, as is the camera... This is starting to look pretty sweet. Thanks again for the thoughtful replies.

Does anyone have pics showing what I could expect with the wet-mount WA?

The lack of raw is a deal-breaker for me, but if the chdk project comes through it looks fantastic.