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Beginner advice needed

Started by peterclark ·

  • 5Posts
  • 5Replies

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Beginner advice needed

5 posts
  1. I have been using a Sealife DC600 camera for about 2-3 years now but am starting to get annoyed with it. It freezes up, randomly deletes ALL photos, and has poor battery life. Most of all it has a really hard time focusing. What I have been considering for a long time is to upgrade to a DSLR setup. I currently own a Canon Rebel XT (350D). The main question I have is should I keep the Rebel XT and get a housing for it, or upgrade to a newer Canon (40D, 50D, 450D, 500D, etc)?

     

    I have a couple of main concerns. The first is the camera's ability to focus quickly and accurately. I have been in situations with my Sealife where I try and try (dozens of photos of a Coral Banded Shrimp inside of sponge come to mind...would only focus on the sponge if anything) to get a subject in focus and never succeeding, so this is very important to me. I know Canon SLRs vary in their AF points so I don't know if newer models would be much more beneficial to my current one or not.

     

    Another big concern I have had is with the viewfinder. How easy is it to see through the viewfinder on an Ikelite with a mask on? I ask since I know newer Canon models have the Live View option to use the LCD. I'm assuming Ikelite found a solution to the problem before this though so my worries are for nothing...but it would help to have that assumption confirmed.

     

    So please let me know your thoughts on if I should just go with the Rebel XT I already own or if I should upgrade to something newer and why. And thank you in advance for your help!

  2. This might belong more in the Beginner's forum, and I'm not much past a beginner myself, but I can try to answer from my own first-DSLR experience (rig IDed in signature below). I stepped up to my present setup from a Canon A520 in the Canon housing, which likely had similar performance to the Sealife.

     

    I can't speak for the Canon Rebel specifically but in my Oly E330, which is a pretty 'entry level' DSLR a couple years old, I have only 3 focal spots and I more often than not turn off the outside ones and force it to focus on the center only. If I want to frame a shot with the main element off-center, I do the half-press-to-lock focus and then reframe before completing the shot. You would perhaps find yourself using that technique as well. I think even for a newer DSLR with a bazillion focus points, if you're after a wide aperture shot and narrow DOF, you have to be careful about what the 'autofocus' ends up grabbing. But of course with DSLR the lens and sensor are both bigger, so you can get away with a smaller aperture and wider DOF and still get the exposure, so for those shots more focal points definitely equates to a faster overall shot. (Plus if you go up to a DSLR I'm assuming you'd also add at least one external strobe.) The other thing that can help focus speed is a 'modeling' or 'focus' light - doesn't have to be one of the high-end, $400 ones, just basically a flashlight that helps the AF lock better. It's not much intensity relative to a strobe so you don't really have to worry about the fancy autoshutoff and such features until you get to the higher end...

     

    In terms of viewfinders, most people say that Ike's can be a bit challenging, but are usable. External VFs can be added to ike housings, but at considerable cost. It will take some adjustment to use it vs. the back screen of the Sealife. Disadvantages is of course you're seeing the world thru the viewfinder while pursuing the shot, but what you make up in faster AF and immediate shutter response relative to the PnS should significantly assist gettting shots. I would not from my reading recommend using liveview modes on Canon right now, most of them are really more intended for 'tripod' type work. If you really want Liveview then your best current options (pending housing availability) are the newer Sony DSLRs* (A350 and up) or the micro 4:3rds Panasonics**...they're the only ones right now that are doing a much higher speed live view that doesn't sacrifice a lot of the advantages of DSLR in terms of either much slower focus or additional mirror actuations which equates to shutter release delay. (Confession - I'm still almost entirely a liveview shooter myself.)

     

    I can tell you that using my own first DSLR has been both a 'joy' compared to the old point n shoot - and a horror as I STILL miss shots, and the ones that do come out are so much closer to what I want to be taking that it's teasing me to ramp up the hardware curve further to get the others I just "know" I "should have". But I know as a vacation-only shooter, I have to get my skills up further before I really upgrade much more aside from perhaps larger strobes. (Course I can always upgrade to a better body for topside practicing... :uwphotog: )

     

    My recommendation, if you know your Rebel and are happy with the topside pics it takes now, practice trying pics with relatively wider apertures (f5-f7) in medium to dimmer light and get a feel for how well it will focus, meter, etc. for you. Maybe trying to shoot things like a single leaf partially obscured behind another tree limb or whatnot, kind of like trying to focus on a given eel (or banded shrimp) hidden behind gorgonian limbs (or in a barrel)...if you can find a shooting method that works for you under those sorts of conditions, that's analogous to what you'd be experiencing when shooting underwater...so go look for a housing.

     

    There's always going to be people who say "buy used first and work your way up as your skill increases instead of breaking the bank at the beginning", and those that say "why pay incrementally and ultimately more vs. just buying it 'right' the first time?" I'm strictly in the bottom feeder category myself, at my skill level, plus cameras change way to fast to ever 'keep up' with the 'best' choice at any given time, but you've gotta make that call on your own. If you like your current camera, you can probably house it and get some used strobes for a sum total of $1500 or so. A newer body and housing alone will greatly exceed that, even if you get frugal with used strobes and accessories on top of it. ebay and the classified sections here are great places to score used Ike housings.

    Welcome to the madness.

     

    Footnotes:

     

    *The Sony live-view is using a secondary sensor up in the viewfinder area, with an optional mirror-tilt position that feeds it vs. feeding the optical viewfinder. So 'live view' does not require extra actuations moving the primary mirror out of the way of the main phase-detect AF or for metering etc...the camera essentially starts from the same point when taking a pic using the optical viewfinder vs. using the liveview. The older Oly E330 that I have did it in similar fashion with a partially silvered mirror feeding both optical viewfinder and secondary sensor, at the cost of some viewfinder brightness and size, and the subsequent Olys (420, 520, 620, E30, etc) have all abandoned the 2nd sensor completely and are using various generations of contrast-detect AF instead of or in supplement to phase detect AF to try and minimize the shutter delay consequence of their liveview modes. Canon and Nikon both to my knowledge use liveview modes that also require more mirror actuation for metering and/or focusing, although the new video-capable ones might let you essentially 'frame capture' from video, but I don't know at what rez or how that would work with lighting, focusing, etc. With liveview remember you may also be gaining a 'video lag' in terms of waht you see on the electronic viewfinder vs. the actual state of the subject, in addition to any extra actuation delay necessitated by additonal mirror flips, slower contrast vs. phase detect AF, etc. (That's something I didn't appreciate at first and used to argue against, but having used it for a while now I can definitely say it's true.) Bottom line, Right now DSLR "liveview" is a buzzword that not all manufacturers are using in remotely the same way to describe equal capabilities, so read up on the actual implementation tradeoffs for any proposed camera choice!!

     

    **Panasonic micro4:3rds G1 and GH1 - the "DSLR-like" form factors, reportedly have very fast electronic viewfinding and fast focus. Housing is available for the GH1 but is pricey (non-Ike). Their smaller GF1 also has reportedly very good focus performance, but no housing yet I believe. The current Olympus E-P1 reportedly has fairly slower focus performance, but Oly is rumored to make an E-P2 announcement on 31 October. There is a company right now engineering a housing for the E-P1 that will use Nikonos lenses, which is an interesting combination, but that will require manual focus work with the lens.

    Edited by rtrski
  3. Thank you very much for your response. I hadn't thought about those problems with live view so that is good to know. I guess I will just have to keep with the normal viewfinder. Worst case I learn how to aim it without looking through there (I used to do that with my first digital camera years ago to get photos of friends when they weren't expecting it. I would have the camera in my lap and experience helped me aim it). This obviously wouldn't be ideal though. I may just have to try to find someone with such a setup and see if I can see the viewfinder easily with my mask on.

     

    I do still need to try some of those tests with the leaf that you recommended, but if I set it to use only the center focus point then that shouldn't be a problem. I hadn't considered that for underwater but that would be perfect. It would be a lot better than having to set that on the few occasions needed. I love the idea of getting the focus and then off centering it. On land shots I just normally use one of the other 6 AF points on the rebel but that takes time to change, so I like the suggestion of always using the center one.

     

    I agree with you in getting used equipment. That is why I was thinking that if I needed to upgrade I would look at the 40D first rather than the 50D since used equipment would save me a ton. I first found this website by looking for a place to find used equipment for sale. Once I figure out what equipment I want I plan to post a want to buy post in the classifieds.

     

    And thank you again for your reply!

  4. You're welcome, and I hope someone else chimes in for you as well, as a beginner myself there's the (strong) risk I don't know what I'm talking about yet. :uwphotog: In regards to viewfinder, a lot depends on your mask as well, so you may find a new mask is a relatively inexpensive investment which also helps. There are threads you can search out here that have suggestions in that regard too (the most common themes: low volume, and black skirt to reduce illumination from the side that cause internal reflections and make the VF image harder to see).

     

    Rgds, rtrski

  5. let me add to the above

     

    housing and ports are a very substantial investment compared to the cost of a low-end dslr. worth considering are the alternatives of buying used, or buying a combination of camera and housing that is more or less current state of the art (housings always being available about 6 months before the camera is superseded) with the features you need (this assumes you don't have a big investment in a system as i have in Canon - or maybe even if you do have a big investment)

     

    unless you are in a manual focus situation, Canon and Nikon live view are pretty much useless as mentioned above

     

    having gone to considerable expense converting my Canon system to TTL flash, i would only consider a camera/housing/flash combination with fiber optic TTL (i don't know what those choices are today)

     

    the Panasonic G1/GH1 is an appealing proposition and there should soon be some housings available (particularly the GH1 with video capability), although i'm not sure what you do about wide angle with the micro 4/3 format

     

    The Olympus dslrs with factory housings have also been cost effective. these cameras aren't up to Canon/Nikon at high ISO or overall IQ, but underwater i don't think that makes a difference for most uses

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