Brand new, starting from scratch, need lots of help?

Hey everyone, well I have so many questions I will just get to them. I have done underwater photography for about 5 years now, just with prosumer digicams, but I really want to get into videography but there is so much conflicting info out there, like which format is better, which is easier to edit. Types of housings, what are the must have manual controls you need on your housing, I'm not going to be shooting professional, but I am a perfectionist so I would like great video that I can edit fairly easy. I have only been looking about a week now and the setup I'm looking at that won't make me break the bank is the Canon Hv30 in a inklite housing. Would this be a decent set up for a beginner? I will have to get better editing software, I just shifted to a Mac so I'm waiting to see what camera I get to see what editing software is best. So the main questions are.

1. what is the best format for video quality right now?

2. What format would you recommend for editing?

3. What controls are a must have for a housing?

4. are there any camera housing combos that you recommend that could be kept under a $2500 budget? Just camera and housing.

5. And any other info that would be helpful to a newbie.

thanks for any info you can give.

Hey everyone, well I have so many questions I will just get to them. I have done underwater photography for about 5 years now, just with prosumer digicams, but I really want to get into videography but there is so much conflicting info out there, like which format is better, which is easier to edit. Types of housings, what are the must have manual controls you need on your housing, I'm not going to be shooting professional, but I am a perfectionist so I would like great video that I can edit fairly easy. I have only been looking about a week now and the setup I'm looking at that won't make me break the bank is the Canon Hv30 in a inklite housing. Would this be a decent set up for a beginner? I will have to get better editing software, I just shifted to a Mac so I'm waiting to see what camera I get to see what editing software is best. So the main questions are.

1. what is the best format for video quality right now?

2. What format would you recommend for editing?

3. What controls are a must have for a housing?

4. are there any camera housing combos that you recommend that could be kept under a $2500 budget? Just camera and housing.

5. And any other info that would be helpful to a newbie.

thanks for any info you can give.

Do not know myself but I'm sure these questioned can be answered if you look through 'Search' ... If not there's some very knowledgeable peeps on here ...

Dive safe

DeanB

Nate, lets try and answer these questions for you.

1. The smaller cameras that are in your budget range are pretty much all AVCHD, which is a very good format and not any more difficult to edit with than HDV or SD really.

2. AVCHD is perfectly fine. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are looking for here.

3. Must have: record, zoom, Manual White Balance, Manual Focus, Still photo (personal preference) and access to the custom control which is assignable.

4. My recommendation would be something along the lines of the Light and Motion Stingray housing with a Sony XR 200 or CX 500...that set up would put you around $2600 but with a high quality machined aluminum housing instead of polycarbonate. Also a great camera with lots of features.

if you can spend an extra $400...go with the Stingray plus which has a port system (expandable). This is an actual lens system from L&M as opposed to the flat acrylic front on the regular Stingray. Definitely worth it especially as you get more into and want to shoot wide angle and macro video. Another really nice feature of the Sray housings is the new optional electronic left handle which will give you access to many more camera features...that would likely be a late upgrade for you as its pricey...I guess what im saying here is you can get this system in your budget for now, but have a lot of room to upgrade as you learn and get more into.

5. Just switching to Mac, make sure you get Final Cut Express 4.0 unless you really want to get creative and spring for the full FCP quite which is definitely worth it at the new lower price of $999...but that can be upgraded to later on as well.

4. are there any camera housing combos that you recommend that could be kept under a $2500 budget? Just camera and housing.

Hi, Saw your post and you might be interested in looking at what I have for sale here. There are also other selling their gear. Mine is not a starter system and it's really a very good deal. Pix of everything and details are also there. End of commercial!!

SubNate,

That used system guamrider is selling may be an excellent way to start. If something has been taken care of there is nothing wrong with going the 2nd hand route. I have been helping people buy and sell their new and used gear for years and I have yet to have a complaint. The equipment simply needs to have been taken care of is all.

That said, with new gear you get warranties and they can be very helpful. Whenever I buy a new cam I always buy a 2nd extended warranty which I always use simply for cleaning and realignment even if nothing goes wrong.

There will be much disagreement with this next statement. Editing has a learning curve, period. No matter what NLE (non linear editing) application you use, there is a learning curve. It takes a long time to learn to use any NLE beyond the very basics. A real editor has spent years learning all the tricks and tips that speed his workflow including the keyboard shortcuts, compositing, color correction, keyframing of effects and so on. When Final Cut Pro first hit the scene with version 1, there were no books, forums, dvds or anything else to learn from and it caused a very steep curve. Mary Lynn Price and I would spend hours on the phone just trying to figure out how to close a gap. Today there is an oversaturation of books, tutorials and dvds of all kinds as well as some excellent forums that you will find will be both helpful and a speeding up of your personal learning curve. Never the less, there is still a curve to learn and if you don't practice, you will forget very quickly. I tell this to all my editing students and too often, after not practicing their editing skills, they call up saying they have forgotten to the point that even their notes don't make sence.

Final Cut Express is a good, inexpensive NLE but is very limited compared to the pro version. Other than the money factor, my question is; Why bother to go through the curve only to outgrow the application and then jump to another, albeit similar, application. If you are serious about learning, start with the NLE that you will probably never outgrow. I've been using FCP since its inception and am Apple certified using it but there remains a ton of things it can do that I do not know how to do. This is because one uses the tools they need and when a new tool is needed, that's when you learn it. While I certainly know the multicam tools, since I rarely ever do a multicam shoot as one would do at a concert, I can't even begin to consider myself an expert using the mulitcam features. Another point is that Final Cut Express does not come with Compressor (needed to encode your final sequences in order to make a DVD) or DVD Studio Pro, where you can make some fairly impressive DVDs, or Motion, a titling and graphic motion application similar to what you get in the more advanced Adobe After Effects or Soundtrack Pro, where you can make your own royalty free music as well as clean up audio problems you may have in your video and finally, Color, which is used for advanced color correction and grading. Final Cut Studio comes with them all.

While Mike is correct that the basic steps for editing SD and HD/HDV/AVCHD are the same....doing the actual editing is very different. It is difficult to quickly scroll through any of these formats except SD...ingestion is different from SD or HDV tape based formats as opposed to HD/AVCHD inter or intra...the codecs and settings are different and even naming of clips has a different workflow. This is not to scare you away from any of this, you WILL LEARN, but step by step, one thing at a time. I'm just saying that if you want to learn, no need to start on a moped before you jump to a motorcycle.

The HDV or AVCHD inexpensive cams would be fine for a starter. As Mike suggested, either the L & M or Gates housings would be more than fine. That would be a choice you would need to make as one(Gates) is mechanical and L & M is electronic. There are also those who swear by their Amphibico housings as well. You certainly want a decent set of underwater video lights, manual focus controls, manual white balance, power, and zoom (you will rarely need to use the zoom control, if you do need it, just get closer) Just avoid the cheap stuff as buyer's remorse never feels good and will cause problems that will only frustrate you.

Good luck to you Nate

SubNate,

That used system guamrider is selling may be an excellent way to start. If something has been taken care of there is nothing wrong with going the 2nd hand route. I have been helping people buy and sell their new and used gear for years and I have yet to have a complaint. The equipment simply needs to have been taken care of is all.

That said, with new gear you get warranties and they can be very helpful. Whenever I buy a new cam I always buy a 2nd extended warranty which I always use simply for cleaning and realignment even if nothing goes wrong.

There will be much disagreement with this next statement. Editing has a learning curve, period. No matter what NLE (non linear editing) application you use, there is a learning curve. It takes a long time to learn to use any NLE beyond the very basics. A real editor has spent years learning all the tricks and tips that speed his workflow including the keyboard shortcuts, compositing, color correction, keyframing of effects and so on. When Final Cut Pro first hit the scene with version 1, there were no books, forums, dvds or anything else to learn from and it caused a very steep curve. Mary Lynn Price and I would spend hours on the phone just trying to figure out how to close a gap. Today there is an oversaturation of books, tutorials and dvds of all kinds as well as some excellent forums that you will find will be both helpful and a speeding up of your personal learning curve. Never the less, there is still a curve to learn and if you don't practice, you will forget very quickly. I tell this to all my editing students and too often, after not practicing their editing skills, they call up saying they have forgotten to the point that even their notes don't make sence.

Final Cut Express is a good, inexpensive NLE but is very limited compared to the pro version. Other than the money factor, my question is; Why bother to go through the curve only to outgrow the application and then jump to another, albeit similar, application. If you are serious about learning, start with the NLE that you will probably never outgrow. I've been using FCP since its inception and am Apple certified using it but there remains a ton of things it can do that I do not know how to do. This is because one uses the tools they need and when a new tool is needed, that's when you learn it. While I certainly know the multicam tools, since I rarely ever do a multicam shoot as one would do at a concert, I can't even begin to consider myself an expert using the mulitcam features. Another point is that Final Cut Express does not come with Compressor (needed to encode your final sequences in order to make a DVD) or DVD Studio Pro, where you can make some fairly impressive DVDs, or Motion, a titling and graphic motion application similar to what you get in the more advanced Adobe After Effects or Soundtrack Pro, where you can make your own royalty free music as well as clean up audio problems you may have in your video and finally, Color, which is used for advanced color correction and grading. Final Cut Studio comes with them all.

While Mike is correct that the basic steps for editing SD and HD/HDV/AVCHD are the same....doing the actual editing is very different. It is difficult to quickly scroll through any of these formats except SD...ingestion is different from SD or HDV tape based formats as opposed to HD/AVCHD inter or intra...the codecs and settings are different and even naming of clips has a different workflow. This is not to scare you away from any of this, you WILL LEARN, but step by step, one thing at a time. I'm just saying that if you want to learn, no need to start on a moped before you jump to a motorcycle.

 

The HDV or AVCHD inexpensive cams would be fine for a starter. As Mike suggested, either the L & M or Gates housings would be more than fine. That would be a choice you would need to make as one(Gates) is mechanical and L & M is electronic. There are also those who swear by their Amphibico housings as well. You certainly want a decent set of underwater video lights, manual focus controls, manual white balance, power, and zoom (you will rarely need to use the zoom control, if you do need it, just get closer) Just avoid the cheap stuff as buyer's remorse never feels good and will cause problems that will only frustrate you.

Good luck to you Nate

 

 

Hey thanks for all the advice, But I have another question, I'm not sure how to word it since I never have never edited anything before? But I was reading that the AVCHD is harder to work because the clips over lap in someway because the way they are compressed and that makes pulling specific portions of clips out alot harder.I also worry that some of the cameras out there won't be compatible with the MAC. I know they say tape is a dying technology. But it seems like HDV is what all the videography schools still use. So what is the basic workflow from getting your video from your camera to putting it on a DVD to watch on the T.V? Also is there any books or websites that would offer a wealth of knowledge. Hey thanks for all the info. Nate

Also is there any books or websites that would offer a wealth of knowledge. Hey thanks for all the info. Nate

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31646

Subnate,

There are plenty of forums, books and tutorials where you can find help. I write for the kenstone.net and the lafcpug.org Final Cut Pro based websites. Personally, I think the kenstone.net site has the best forum because you usually get answers to problems very quickly. Whenever I have any issues I can't figure out, I go there first. I am always on there trying to help out but I find I learn and take away as much as I give. There is also the 2-pop.com forum which is the grand daddy of them all but not as user friendly. For books, Peachpit Press has all you will ever need on any of the forums, there are many excellent DVD tutorials of which I think Ripple Training is of the highest quality. However, despite all this, I think the best way to learn is to either get together with someone else for private lessons or with a friend who may know a bit more than you do. Now with iChat sharing, I have many students from around the country with whom I allow to take over my computer or visa versa and I can teach and talk that way. It greatly speeds up the learning as it is, in essence, one on one lessons. The iChat is free, just need that free iChat account address and you are good to go.

Then there are also the various seminars and large group lessons that some people take. I do not find that they are very useful over the long run as they are not individually based or paced and thus information retention is not what it should be. I remember taking a few of these when I first started and found them less than desirable. However, a small 6-8 person group can be pretty good. Some people like the Lynda Training site....don't know as I've never used it.

I have not done much with AVCHD but, in wanting to see if there were any difficulties, I went to a local Best Buy recently and recorded some instore video. Hooked the reader card to my laptop and the log and transfer (not log and capture which is for HDV tape based) went smoothly. No problems at all in this very short attempt.

Either way you go, with a 2nd hand system or a new one, HDV or AVCHD, there is a lot to learn but if you stay with it, you will have a blast and a real sence of accomplishment.

Steve

Hey another question have you heard anything about Sonys new format not being compatible with Macs? I went to the apple store today and they were telling me not to get a Sony because they do not play well with Macs. They told me to look at Canons or Panasonic's. Do you know anyone who has done serious editing with the AVCHD format? I've kinda been looking at the Canon vixia HF S10 but I have to see if I can find a housing for it. But I think it might take a little longer to get everything, I might just start with the camera and editing software first so I can at least start learning how to use it. But I really like that Ichat idea. But I will let you go the wife wants to get the christmas lights up. Thanks for all the info Nate.

The person you spoke with at the Apple store is obviously not either a shooter or editor. It appears to me from many visits at Apple stores around the country that most employees seem to have either a general knowledge of their products or a specialty. Eric Hanuer told me of an employee who knows the Final Cut Studio. That's the first I've heard of any of these workers who knew Studio beyond the bare basics. Never the less, whether you choose Sony, Canon or Panasonic...Final Cut will be able to handle them. Workflows vary sometimes from person to person as well as from cam to cam but you won't find yourself stuck with a cam that FC won't handle. I believe this is also true for some of the higher end NLEs for PCs as well.

If you don't buy Guams system and decide on the Canon, you might as well get the HFS11 which is the same cam except for a bigger hard drive. They both capture to card as well as a flash drive. Both Light & Motion as well as Gates make good housings for them. Remember that the port for these housings are extra but necessary. Unfortunately, Fathoms does not yet have a piece of glass for either company. I know nothing about working with flash drives and editing and was in a discussion just yesterday to learn a bit more about it.

Steve

It appears to me from many visits at Apple stores around the country that most employees seem to have either a general knowledge of their products or a specialty.

That is alot more than I have found when dealing with the people I find working in the Apple Stores.

Eric Hanuer told me of an employee who knows the Final Cut Studio.

Sure, and I have heard people claim to have seen the Lock Ness Monster and Big Foot. I don't buy that either

That's the first I've heard of any of these workers who knew Studio beyond the bare basics.

If they realize Final Cut Studio is made by Apple, that is the most I expect and consider myself lucky.

Kidding aside on all of these points, I have found that the Apple Stores I have been in, more so in the last couple of years, the people really do not know that much other than the Geniuses with the specific training to diagnose and repair certain things, and even then by the time I have them check things out I already know what the issue is and something needs to be replaced.....

Completely agree, part of the problem is that you have been doing this so long you have become the master while these kids at the Apple Store barely know what software is what. However, if Eric H. says he found someone who knows their stuff, I believe him as Eric has been a pro-photographer with more credits than I can count and he is pretty darn good with FCP as well. Actually, he told me that he has been getting help with learning Motion.

Steve