Canon Digital Rebel

I've been thinking about upgrading my consumer auto everything Canon S300 system to something more flexable with full control, possible lens selection, higher resolution, direct connection to my Ikelite DS 125 and faster speed. I thought that the Nikon cp 5000 would be it, then I saw the Canon Digital Rebel in the store the other day and noticed Ikelite's DEMA prototype housing. These two systems seem to really ride the line between prosumer and pro cameras. What are the advantages/disadvantages of going SLR? Anyone have any thoughts on this as an UW system?

1) DSLRs don't display the image on the LCD pannel until you have taken the picture. Which means you will have to look through the viewfinder. Any thoughts on how difficult this is UW. I've been enjoying the "shoot from the hip" capability of framing with the LCD with a mask on. Does the housing help? Is there any talk of combining the lens change flexability of an SLR with the mirrorless direct light path of a standard digicam since you are "seeing" trough the lens using the LCD? Do others prefer the bright light advantages of using the viewfinder?

2) How much faster is the Digital rebel than say a standard digicam. My bigest problem with digital is shutter lag. Trying to get the perfect fish portrait is infuriating with my s300. Is this an advantage of DSLRs?

3) how adaptable is the ikelite housing likely to be with lens changes to the camera based on other Ikelite DSLR housings? It is probably taylored to the included 18-55 mm lens. What if I wanted say a 15 mm fisheye lens or macro lens or even 200mm telephoto?

One huge advantage I see is being able to avoid the whole cp5000/5400 dilema. Should I get the 5000 which is best for UW photography and loose the telephoto advantages of the cp 5400 topside? With the rebel (comparitively priced) I could change lenses and get both.

UWPhotoNewbie

Hi Newbie,

This is the perfect posting for us SLR shooters to "pontificate" - or at least provide some good information for folks that are thinking of moving from a consumer digicam to a DSLR camera.

You hit the nail right on the head about the viewfinder. You have to look through there and that means your face has to be up against the housing. I don't mind putting my face up there at all, but I DO mind that the viewfinder is pretty small. The advantage is that because the camera is not constantly transmitting video to the LCD, there is literally NO shutter lag. It is imperceptible. If you want to "see" the shot beforehand and then take it - especially if it's a fish portrait - then this is the system for you. Consumer digicams can be "guided luck" in this department.

Lenses: For starters you will want one good macro lens and one wideangle lens. If Sigma releases a 12-24 lens, that's the way to go. Otherwise, a good 50mm macro lens is the lens to start with. The Ike port system can accomodate most lenses. We all better cross our fingers that this new Sigma 12-24 lens fits into Ike's ports.

So how about a cost comparison? This will be purely speculation on my part, because I have NO idea how much a 300D housing will cost. Let's assume you can keep your DS125 and you already have a sync cord:

1)

Coolpix5000 with 19mm lens: ~$650

Ike Coolpix 5000 housing w/ Dome port: ~$800

Total: $1,650

2)

Digital Rebel w/ 18-55 equivalent lens: ~$1000

Ike Rebel Housing with dome and flat ports: ~$1,300

Sigma 12-24 lens: ~$700

Canon 50mm Macro: ~$200

Total: $3,200

As you can see, there is a big difference there. Personally, I think it's worth it to get the SLR, but that's a personal opinion.

The other thing that is VERY important to note is that if you get the Rebel instead of the 10D, you are "saving" about $400 on the whole system. That $400 only amounts to about 1/8th of the total cost though, or 12.5%

Cheers

James

James;

Equivalent price difference is not $400, it's $600 for camera body alone; $1499 for 10D vs $899 for 300G.

Also I'm quite sure housings for the 10D are going to be more expensive. But this is speculation.

I'm wondering what the macro capabilities of the 18-55 lens is if bought in the $100 package, perhaps with diopters...?

Jack

(Have my dealer looking at Ike's housing at DEMA...)

James,

Thank you for the excellent reply. I think I am leaning toward the Rebel. Your comment about shtter lag related to video throughput to the lcd is something I had not considered. I guess I dislike shutter lag less than I dislike peering through the tiny hole while wearing a mask. And your point about not being able to see the "real" shot with shutter lag despite seeing the suppopsed frame in the lcd is right on the mark.

I think I have seen on some upmarket housings a device that transmitts the viewfinder to a magnified port or LCD. Is this possible? Does it exist for other SLR housings?

Also, I actually think that the cost comparison is closer than you stated. The 15mm lens and 12-24 lens are really extras that aren't included in the Coolpix system. The included 18-55 mm lens is comparable to the coolpix 28-85 standard lens. This makes it:

1)

Coolpix5000 (new-not refurbished): ~$987.85

Coolpix 19mm lens ~147.63 (c-net)

Ike Coolpix 5000 housing w/ Dome port: ~$800

Total: $1,935

2)

Digital Rebel w/ 18-55 equivalent lens: ~$939 (on C-net)

Ike Rebel Housing with dome and flat ports: ~$1,300

$2239

Which is only $300 difference.

There is one other issue against the rebel. I understand that TTL and E-TTL are not compatable, and that while my DS-125s would do TTL directly from the hotshoe to the strobe on the coolpix, it won't work on the rebel and I'll have to go manual--with the Ikelite manual controler--which I don't have since I own the TTL controller for the Canon s300. So that is another $150 to get a less capable strobe control. Is this a big deal? Or do you usually shoot manual strobe anyway because TTL doesn't work UW? Cathy Church told me that TTL was useless UW. The pics I tool last year didn't work with TTL, although Ikelite has since replaced my circuitry to better work with the s300.

Also, I was doing the comparison between the D10/Rebel and the guy in the camera store told me that Canon doesn't make any comparable inexpensive lenses to the rebel 18-55 mm EF-S lens. A simalur lens for that camera would be about $1400 (although much higher quality)--the same as the camera body. Even if I went with the minimum 15 mm it would be $700, which puts the D10 at 2x the price of the Rebel, 3x if I want a system I can use topside as well. While this system would include much higher quality lenses, body, and burst speed, it is probably out of reach.

Thanks for your comments James. I'm always delighted to hear what the pros think!

The 18-55 lens that comes w/ the digital rebel does NOT have the field of view of 18-55mm. It has the field of view of a 28-85mm lens. That is EXACTLY the same f.o.v. as the coolpix...

Confusing eh?

28mm just isn't very wide for underwater shooting. It is a good "normal" lens that comes with the Rebel, but not wide.

That's why you would want the 19mm lens for the Coolpix, or a 15mm lens (cheapest) for the Rebel. I hope that makes sense.

And I sincerely hope the price on the Coolpix5000 isn't $987!!!!! That would make it cost more than when it first came out.

Hopefully some other Canon shooters will jump in here.

I'm not going to comment on the TTL. I don't agree with Cathy Church if she told you that TTL is useless underwater.

Cheers

James

Just to add another point of view, I have to disagree with James' "Guided Luck' comment and add a tally to the viewfinder digital column. After shooting with a viewfinder digital for several years, I just can't make myself go back to using an optical viewfinder. I feel disconnected from the dive, I have less control of my buoyancy, and I just can't see my composition as well. The LCD of the Olympus C-5050 is precisely (well, maybe not precisely, but almost) what the shot will look like, so I'm not sure where James' came up with "Guided Luck". The Nikonos V with a 15mm lens and an optical viewfinder --- now there was "Guided Luck"!

The other issue to examine as you decide how to upgrade is the overall size and flexibility of the system. I am retiring a d-SLR system because it is just too darn big. I am much more comfortable with the smaller camera and smaller housing. I can get it into tighter cracks and crevices where the interesting critters live. The d-SLR crowd will cite the superior optics of interchangeable lenses, which may be a valid argument, but it is countered a bit by the constant search for the appropriate ports and diopters and the other bits and parts necessary to make it all work.

It sounds like uwphotonewbie is a dedicated Nikon fan, so I don't know if this is an appropriate comment or not, but if you would look at the Olympus C-5050, the shutter lag can be all but eliminated by putting the camera flash in "Slave" mode and learning to half press the shutter while composing the shot. From the half press, the shutter response is almost instantaneous.

Good pts Jeff - I appreciate a different point of view from someone willing to come to the defense of consumer digicams. I'm not surprised you disagree with me, but I think it's because you've _really_ had a negative digital SLR experience. However, judging from the peope I have dove with and talked to, most people who "upgrade" from a consumer digicam to an SLR will NEVER go back.

A SLR camera is going to be bigger than a consumer digicam, no doubt. But I'd be hard pressed to say that Ike's 300D housing with handles is much bigger than his Olympus 5050 housing. That new housing looks sweet.

And if we're going to make size comparisons, let's not forget the sensor. The 3rd generation CMOS in the 10D/300D is much bigger than one found in a consumer digicam - something like 4x bigger actually. This makes a huge difference (to me, and I have used both) in image quality.

Looking through a viewfinder (that's what the window on the back of an SLR is called) is not as convenient as being able to hold the camera out away from you but it is loads better for critical focus for super macro, as well as in bright sunlight conditions. Even if your consumer digicam housing has a LCD shade, you are going to have to press your face up against it to really see the LCD in bright sun.

And lastly - shutterlag. A fish swimming at 1 foot per second is a pretty common subject. If you've got .5 second shutter lag, that's 6 inches. That's where the "guided luck" comment came from - what you see on the LCD when you press the button is not always what you record. If it's a "predictable" fish, you can usually guess where he's going to be and get him in the frame. But getting a good portrait is HARD, next to an artform. That's because you guessed it - fish are rarely predictable. Using the half press helps, but again, it won't work if the subject is moving toward or away from you as the focus is locked .

Cheers

James

Small packages are really nifty in the water, but the sensor size is HUGE in determining the quality of the resulting image. I'd gladly take a 4MP large sensor over an 8 MP small sensor anyday.

I'm waiting for a digital rangefinder with large sensor and low shutter lag. That would be amazing. Here's something one of my friends dug up:

http://www.photographyblog.com/comments.php?id=P921_0_1_0

Could be an interesting first stab (maybe)...

I'm waiting for a digital rangefinder with large sensor and low shutter lag. That would be amazing.

I can't even imagine how expensive that would be. The prices on Leica rangefinders are already beyond belief.