Huge strobe quality difference?

A buddy of mine has just purchased the Olympus PEN with the Oly underwaterhousing and 2 Inon S-2000 strobes. His first photos are absolutely amazing. The sharpness and lighting are phenomenal. I've been shooting with the Nikon D80 in an Ikelite housing with the DS-125 and the DS-51 but I am getting lacklaster results. Read all the topics, the books, internet tips, but I am getting quite troubled by my lack of progression. I just can't seen to get rid of backscatter and/or falloff light from the strobes. Recently purchased some extra arms to get the strobes even further away from the camera. Positioned the strobes out, behind the housing. Have been trying all sorts of positions of the strobes, but I just can't get the results that I want or the kind of results that other people get (for instance from Pen)

In 3 years time I've managed to take 1 wideangle photo that I am happy about ( ), but I'd like more results in such a timeframe!

Why are the Inons so different from the Ikelite strobes? The Inon photos I've seen seem to have much more balanced strobelight?

Should I get rid of the Ikelites and transfer to Inon? Or stop the hobby alltogether? I know the Ikelite is capable of good photos and lots of photogs are happy with them, but I want to stop crying after 2 years of underwater photography trials.

My macroshots are OK and sometimes good, but I just can't seem to get a grip on whole fish (everything larger than seastar), scenery and wideangle photography. You can check my Flickr stream for disappointing W/A shots.

I can purchase a 10mm fisheye lens to minimize water between subject and lens (which helps a lot!), but shouldn't it also be possible to get fair results with the Sigma 15mm fisheye or an ordinary 17mm wideangle lens?

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=sigma&w=99799929%40N00

Hi Arne,

Firstly to help you more we need to know what lens your using.

I have used the Ikelite D80 with dual DS125 and only recently moved away from Ikelite with the D90.

If you look at my older shots on my flickr, they were all taken with the D80 and Ds125's. The wide angle stuff with the Tokina 10-17mm.

Dont give up yet maybe with some help from others here we can put you on track.

Regards Mark

Would you like to post a few shots too, Arne, which illustrate the problem. I'm not sure which ones from your Flickr site.

For wide angle photography, I would favour an Ike 125 over an Inon S2000.

Alex

For wide angle photography, I would favour an Ike 125 over an Inon S2000.

Alex

As would I. It's my impression that the small straight flash tubes used in the Inons produce an overly harsh light. Not good for WA. The color temperature of the light is also too cold compared to what is ideal on a WA strobe. (The wide coverage also makes the inons less suitable for macro, IMHO.)

A circular flashtube is by far the way to go for WA. I was thinking though that perhaps using two different strobes with different color temperature and beam angle could give you an uneven lighting. One part too bright and cold, one dark but warmer.

Just my two cents worth..

E.

Here are two typical examples.

Sahuang (above Lembeh) F/10, ISO320, 1/60 17mm. Sigma 17-70mm @17mm behind Ikelite 8 inch domeport. DS-125 left, DS-51 right.

Den Osse, Netherlands. F/5.6, ISO200, 1/50 21mm. Sigma 17-70mm @21mm behind Ikelite 8 inch domeport. DS-125 left, DS-51 right.

Difference is 2 extra 8 inch arm extension in the second photo (and supposedly a little more found knowledge from me…) for a total of 14 inches distance strobes to camera.

I am fairly good at Photoshop, but even I can't save that first photo. Blown at the top and the dreaded backscatter from the flash. Both places did have particles in the water (the second even more than the first, but these are quite extreme. In pool conditions (at the diveclub) I also get the scatter and overpowering flash. When I change de EV dial on the Ikelite, thus manipilating the exposure I get either a blown out white flashed photo or an underexposed photo. I just noticed I've got 20.000 exposures on the D80 so far from Indonesia, Philippines, Japan and Egypt.

Lately I've been taking down apertures for wideangles as I noticed more people doing that and letting more light into the camera. (as the Pen does as well looking at the EXIF, but compacts (and the Pen too?) tend to prefer large apertures F/4 and smaller on P and Auto modes.

Now compare with this shot:

Indoor pool, F/4, ISO200, 1/30 14mm. Olympus Pen E-PL1. Dual Inon S2000 strobes some 6 inches from the housing. Number of shutter releases? This is the 17th photo of the camera!

Unedited. Just opened in Photoshop and only adjusted exposure. Olympus set to "Vivid colors".

I couldn't take a photo like that if my life depended on it with my setup with my Sigma 15mm fisheye and Ikelite strobes. I can live with that, but I hate getting crap shots from great locations that I don't dive every year. I will be in Bali in a couple of weeks and the sweat and headaches are starting to come from thinking how I should photograph a Mola mola with 15mm fisheye and my strobes. "How to photograph Mola mola" doesn't bring up any hits in Google…

P.S. I know the Sigma 17-70 warps in the corners, but I don't care about that. (The 15mm is more suited for the 8 inch domeport anyway) I am just really boggled - after all those years - about strobe position avoiding lightspill and backscatter. My 15mm fisheye shots show the same problems.

Hi Mark, I checked out your C7070 photos and D80 photos but they have the kind of quality I am still dreaming about. Some of your older photos do have the dreaded cyan colordropoff (dreadful in my book), but that's to be expected with colors falling off due to distance from the strobe. Your photos are very clean and evenly lit and that's what I've been trying to accomplish the last couple of years.

Hi Mark, I checked out your C7070 photos and D80 photos but they have the kind of quality I am still dreaming about. Some of your older photos do have the dreaded cyan colordropoff (dreadful in my book), but that's to be expected with colors falling off due to distance from the strobe. Your photos are very clean and evenly lit and that's what I've been trying to accomplish the last couple of years.

Unfortunately some of my older photos suffered from the over editing by a zealous user (Me) on a monitor which wasnt calibrated.

My wide angle work was done with two ds125's, each on 2x 8 inch ULCS bouyancy arms. I have the arms out wide and the strobes pointing straight ahead for big stuff or when getting really close I bring the arms in closer but angle the strobes away a little from the lens.

From your photos it looks like strobe placement is your issue. Try an get your hands onto two larger Ikelite strobes like DS125, DS160 and have a play with them.

Regards Mark

I will be in Bali in a couple of weeks

Why don't you try signing up for a uw photo workshop with someone? Jeff Mullins is in Bali, and while I haven't done anything with him, I have heard good things.

Ryan.

Why don't you try signing up for a uw photo workshop with someone? Jeff Mullins is in Bali, and while I haven't done anything with him, I have heard good things.

 

Ryan.

Hi Ryan, I'll actually be diving organized by Jeff! When I'm in Bali he has a photography course elsewhere, so I think I will only see him briefly. I'll be photographing a lot of macrostuff and that doesn't trouble me, but my wideangles are horrendous, which is not a good startingpoint for Mola mola.

First, you may be expecting too much. Lembeh and the Netherlands are both going to have a lot of particles in the water which will make the shots you are trying to get difficult.

On the first shot, the main problem is that the strobe on the top right of the picture is too close to the field of view and is illuminating the water in front of it and causing backscatter. It needs to be further away from the field of view, either laterally, or backwards). Have you considered lighting from the sides instead of from the top. For a vertical format picture this automatically means that the strobe is further away from the edge of the picture (for a given strobe-subject distance).

For my taste (yours may be different) I would have underexposed the background by increasing the shutter speed to make the sea a deeper blue. I would also have tried to get much closer to the subject (or chosen a different subject if this were not possible), and below it, so that I could shoot up to the surface rather than along the bottom. This would have made for a less cluttered background. Of course I don't know whether this was possible in the circumstances.

In the second picture, it just looks as though there is too much muck in the water to attempt a wide-angle shot. I would have stuck to macro!

The shot in the swimming pool is clear primarily because the water is clear. It is not fair to compare this with your photos. Do you know how close the photographer was to his/her subjects - that might be a contributory factor.

Definitely don't give up!

Should I get rid of the Ikelites and transfer to Inon? Or stop the hobby alltogether? I know the Ikelite is capable of good photos and lots of photogs are happy with them, but I want to stop crying after 2 years of underwater photography trials.

No. No.

1) Lessons with Jeff - great idea. This may be all that is required. It may the most important factor.

2) You gave us samples of not very clear water shots vs. a pool shot. I'm not surprised your pool shot had no backscatter.

I've used both brands of strobes. They each have pros and cons. They are not a defining issue on the quality of most wide angle photography, although not many photographers would choose an S2000 over an DS161 for wide angle work.

First, think it terms of the following. You are not trying to light everything in front of you with your strobes. The art of wide angle photography is deciding what part and how you are going to light up what is in your frame. The power and coverage of your strobes create a maximum limitation. Choose shots that can be done within those constraints. Example: Choose one subject for your wide angle shot, e.g. a fan. Decide if you can light the fan with what you have. (The answer with a DS161 is yes). Position the fan in the composition so that your DS161 can light it up. Get the exposure where you want it on the rest of the frame that isn't being lit by your strobe.

Again, lessons with Jeff will be great. Show him your work and tell him what you want to get out of the lessons. You will have the chance to sit there on a shot and work with him to master the technique.

I've used Inon S2000 strobes for wide-angle photography, but they are not the best (the diffusors help, but Inon Z240s are better and the larger Ikelite strobes can be better than either, particularly in balancing tropical light). The trick is to get the angle of the beam right, and to avoid a "hot-spot". The posted image ssuggest that the strobes are too powerful, too close and shining at too straight an angle.

Tim

I use Inon Z240s. It is tough not to light particles in the water with strobes. As someone stated above, shoot macro when it gets bad. If you must shoot WA, I usually remove the difffusers (contrary to most) and try and angle my strobe out...starting with the placement over each shoulder back from the plane...or at least on par. It is tricky and I usually underexpose a few shots before getting it almost right. Feathering the subject with the edges of your strobe light will reduce, not eliminate, the particles. BTW...the shot in the pool really isn't a good comparison with the conditions you had in the photos above.

If you must shoot WA, I usually remove the difffusers (contrary to most) and try and angle my strobe out...starting with the placement over each shoulder back from the plane...

For WA I avoid to remove diffusers especially if I need to cover a very large area. Since diffuser will reduce your light by f/stop, you have fewer chances to get backscatters with diffusers if your strobes are correctly placed.