Point & Shoot / Prosumer vs. SLR

With all the new digital SLRs coming out, specifically the Canon D60 and Nikon D100, I'd be curious to hear some subjective opinions from those of you who have converted from P&S / prosumer digital to a digital SLR.

I switch between a Sony DSC-S85 for digital, which is what I've got housed for diving (thank Ikelite!) and a Canon EOS Elan 7e for film. The Sony is my second digital, and I bought it specifically because of the availability of a stock housing. Housing the EOS was a very brief option, but the cost of getting a custom housing was almost as much as buying the new digital and the stock Ikelite. I also felt that I would be better off learning on digital for underwater, as the whole "shoot - review - shoot again" feature is a huge bonus.

No matter how much I shoot with the Sony (or any other digital camera), I still like the feeling and flexibility of the SLR. I get better composition and exposure with it than with the Sony. This is one of the area's I'm really curious about in terms of the d-SLRs. For any of you who have shot both film and digital on the same brand of SLR, either Canon or Nikon, how do the two compare? Do the characteristics of the film bodies carry over to the digital ones?

Comfort and flexibilty aside, I am starting to tend more to the digital in a lot of situations, even though my pictures are not quite as good as with the SLR. The biggest reason is the cost to see how bad my pictures really were.

On my recent trip to Truk, I took around 250 pictures while diving, 30 of which I like, 10 of which I would print, 2 of which I felt were worth enlarging to 8x10. Cost to print? $20 including enlargements.

On the other hand, I just took 6 rolls of film to a local photo shop and was handed a bill for well over $50. Granted, a higher percentage were good pictures, but not enough to justify the cost just to see what was good and what wasn't.

I shudder to think what I actually spend per year in film and development costs.

So let's hear it, what do you all think?

I know it's early since most people with the digital SLRs probably haven't had a chance to get them housed yet, but it would still be interesting to get everyone's opinion.

Also, for those of you who don't have a digital SLR yet and are shooting away happily with what you've got, how many of you are seriously considering going to an SLR over the next year or so? If you are, which one? If you aren't, why not?

Safe Diving...

Tom

I now house a C-4040z and also a Canon A2 film camera. The C-4040z is easier underwater but I like the flexibility and macro capabilities of the film camera (also no shutter lag and more advanced flash control). For topside use, I wouldn't think of using my P&S digicam for most shots as my Canon SLR + L-series glass gives much better pictures. So, yes!, I'm seriously considering a D-SLR. May not be able to afford a housing for a while but it would sure help me topside . . .

Another data point. I went to tht Galapagos. Only took the digicam underwater (knee problems made me feel uncomfortable fighting the currents with the Canon A2 housing). From the topside portion of the trip alone, I got 13 rolls of film developed (could easily have been twice that many but we were rushing the land trips to get more diving in!). That cost me over $100. Now, if I want to share them electronically I have to scan them in. I'm sitting at around 80 scanned in already and I'll probabaly do 80 more so the rest of the folks on the trip can have a CD with some pictures on it. Having everything digital from the get go would save me more than just a bit of time.

I'm also beginning to think the focal length multiplier controversy is a bit of a red herring. I'd like to have super-wide capability, but I've never used anything wider than a 20mm topside anyway and the Sigma 14mm works out to 21mm with the FLM factored in. I could easily see myself "making do" with the 14mm, a nice 28-70L zoom and my 100-400L!

Mike

I house an Oly E-20. I keep reading threads that don't consider this a dSLR because the lens doesn't come off, but technically it is an SLR, and as such has distinct advantages over a consumer digicam - specifically no shutter lag and precise focus thru the viewfinder. I've thus far been very happy with this system.

In speaking with pro photographers over the past year, the biggest reason that many of them seemed to shun digital was shutter lag. Photography is about capturing a moment, and prosumer digicams makes that difficult or impossible. dSLRs have finally made this possible.

I learned uw photography on a prosumer digicam, and I never realized how much of a drag the shutter lag can be. Now that I've been using a dSLR, I understand why the pros were reluctant, as I could never go back.

The ability to focus manually and precisely is another great benefit, particularly with macro work. The exceptional depth of field of digicams does make focus a little less critical, but more than a few times I've focused from my dive thinking I had a great shot, only to blow it up to the computer screen and see the critter's eyes out of focus. Small LCDs are just too small to rely on for focus, and in dark places you just can't beat focusing manually.

Having used a whole series of Canon cameras both on top and underwater (EOS 3, 1V, D30/D60, Rebel 2000 UW, Elan IIE UW) as well as a 4040 in the OLY housing, I have come to the conclusion that the SLR system is worth the cost and risk of taking UW. I now shoot all of my 35 mm stuff using digital above water and find that the quality is there. Having seen the results from Eric C and Jim Watt's D60 underwater, I think that there is no question that UW SLR is the only way to go. I just wish I could get a Subal housing for the D30/D60, although I will probably get Ikelite to custom build it if they can get the flash right.

Bill

I learned photography on an old Minolta full-manual SLR back in the early 80's. It had a light meter, but that was about all! I used that until it died in the mid-90's, and since I had a job writing software for use with digital cameras I decided to hold off getting a new my film SLR and wait for the digicam technology to improve.

I used a series of low-end consumer cameras for the next couple of years, and took lots of pictures I was not happy with. Consumer digicams tend to have the same list of problems we're all familiar with -- long shutter lag, limited ability to play with depth of field, fixed lens, and an interface more like a camcorder or handheld computer device than a traditional camera.

I got a Canon D30 in 10/2000 and never looked back. I upgraded it to a D60 about two months ago. I sold all my consumer digicams and while I now have a Canon S40 I only got it as a cheap way to get a housed digicam and plan to sell it as soon as I get a housing for my D60.

Sure it's bigger and heavier, and costs a lot more, but I got so frustrated with the consumer digicams I invariably left them at home. It seems to me a camera you don't have with you is not very useful. I could list all the advantages of the SLR but I'm sure you're familiar with them -- for me, these advatanges are well worth the extra cost and weight of an SLR.

As for film costs; I took over 9000 images with my D30. The film/developing cost of 9000 slides would have been more than the cost of the camera body and microdrive!

After using "consumer" digicams for the past couple of years, I can tell you they take phenomenal pictures. Just look at the pictures from the Coolpix 5000 and it's hard to argue.

But everything changed for me this year when I attended Burt Jones and Maureen Shimlock's seminar at Seaspace entitled "Finding the Art in the Animal." Their course really emphasized composing a shot in the right way - to bring out the beauty in the subject - not just take "fish ID photos." That really sunk home when I went home and browsed through my photos. I could tell which ones I "liked" to look at and which ones were just average. The ones I liked were/are the ones with good composition.

Unfortunately, with the shutter lag on consumer cameras, getting good composition requires a LOT of luck, and taking a LOT of pictures. Hopefully the subject is framed right in the shot, facing the right direction, right? Sound familiar?

Well, a DSLR with no shutter lag is a totally different story. Yes, they do have interchangable lenses, rear curtain sync, etc etc...but I think their biggest selling point - for me at least - is the no shutter lag.

Cheers

James

I ordered a Nikon D100 yesterday, and I am wondering if anyone is aware of a housing being built or developed for this camera. I have been shooting underwater with my Nikonos RS for years, and I would like to try SLR digital.

There's no question that shutter lag is a major drawback of the consumer digicams. However, I think these camera have an advantage that you will miss in going to a DSLR. That is the instant updated LCD which allows you frame the shot with the camera a full arms length away from your bubble maker. In some cases, it allows camera angles that you can't get if you had to include your head in the placement of the camera.

Since I had no experience shoot film cameras, I never thought about this until it was pointed out to me by a very expericenced uw photograher friend.

Herb

Versodom:

Be advised that the D100 uses D-TTL with a preflash system to set TTL flash exposure. It will ONLY work in TTL w/ the Nikon SB50DX, SB28DX and SB80DX. Unless you plan on taking one of those flashes underwater with you, you might want to consider another camera. A very unfortunate turn of events indeed.

Cheers

James

I shoot film in an SLR. I've done 3 dives with a prosumer digital camera. I put the thing on a shelf. Shutter lag was too annoying. Too many ajdustments and buttons to push. It's too damn hard to judge the quality of the shot looking at the LCD underwater. No TTL on my setup.

I've ordered a D100 and looking forward to the first housing available. Only because I tired of scanning slides and working on them in PS to get them to look like the slides on the computer.

I ordered a Nikon D100 yesterday, and I am wondering if anyone is aware of a housing being built or developed for this camera. I have been shooting underwater with my Nikonos RS for years, and I would like to try SLR digital.

we try to keep a list with the latest announcements online at this adress. Currently I know 3 manufacturers, who spread rumors about builidng a D100 housing. UK-Germany also shares some thoughts on that, but has not officialy confirmed anything yet.

Let's see what of the rumors finally comes to reality... Andi

Have you heard if these manufacturers are also planning housings for the Fuji S2? I'm leaning toward the S2 over the D100 due to color, TTL and write time issues. But the kicker will be housings. I figure Ikelite will make one. I'm wondering if Sea and Sea or Aquatica will do one as well.

thanks,

Linda

__ >////*> __ http://www.dancing-fish.com __ <*< __

Linda,

Now that Sea and Sea have decided to go w/ a "polycarbonate box" much like Ikelite, hopefully they will do an S2 housing.

Cheers

James

Actually, the S2 Owners Manual is available for download on the internet. For that matter, so is the Nikon D-100 Owners Manual.

Just for kicks I downloaded both of the manuals in order to try to understand the flash and TTL protocols.

The Fuji S2 is compatible with virtually any Nikon protocol speedlite. See page 60-70 in the owners manual, and there is a flash compatibility chart on page 68. It will do TTL and TTL w/ balanced fill flash w/ any speedlite. In order to get 3D-multi-sensor balanced fill-flash, you need to use a DX flash, as the camera uses a preflash system to do that.

The Nikon D100 will not do any kind of TTL unless you are using one of only three flashes: SB28DX, SB50DX, or SB80DX. Kinda limits your options, IMHO. From what I gather, Nikon has not figured out how to properly read the reflected light from the camera's CCD (like a film camera TTL system would do) while the shutter is open. That's why they developed D-TTL, or "digital TTL."

DTTL is not something we are used to, as the camera sets the flash exposure BEFORE the picture is taken by firing a series of preflashes. These preflashes determine the power, flash zoom, and duration of the main flash.

Since the Nikon D1, D1X, D1H, and D100 are new cameras, at first I thought that D-TTL was some kind of "new and improved" system for getting better flash exposures.

I was wrong. It's a workaround system that is going to be crappy to use underwater and force people to either shoot their strobes in manual (woo-hoo! Just what I always wanted to learn for my macro shots - NOT!), or house one or two of the expensive DX series land speedlites $$$$$.

I hope this is of assistance to you all. If you don't believe me, email me and I will send you a copy of the manuals.

Cheers

James Wiseman

>> Giving up the RS? Actually, no, but I'd like to get a second SLR setup, and I'm looking at the alternatives. Digital has finally become viable enough for me to consider jumping on that technology treadmill for underwater.

>> TTL capability is still unknown until the S2 hits the streets. <<

True, but the S2 has hit the streets. In the US, perhaps today? James outlines what is known about the S2/D100 and TTL so far. I've looked at the manuals, and read various (Thom Hogan, etc.) articles/previews, and it looks like there's not alot of reason for the S2 to vary from the S1 in this regard. Anyway, I'm hopeful, but I'm not preordering, or making a decision until I have a chance to try the Nikon and Fuji out side by side, and until there's a better indication of what housings will be available for the S2. We'll see!

Linda

__ >////*> __ http://www.dancing-fish.com __ <*< __

Hmmm, for some reason my last post was as "anonymous".

While it's all well and good that the S2 will be TTL compatible, there are two issues at work.

One is capability. The D100 doesn't have it. The S2 does.

The second is issue is how well it works. There has to be a definite technique used for film versus digital. How well the results of TTL on the S2 compare to film remains to be seen.

There are some less than satisfied users of the Canon E-TTL.

A weakness of the D-SLR is the 1.5x focal length multiplier. But this will actually make macro composition easier. On the other hand, lack of TTL will create problems, since strobe to subject distance often requires fractional f/stop adjustments.

Conversely, wide angle just won't be wide with the D-SLR without a super wide (read expensive) lens. But the TTL issue won't matter because wide angle requires manual strobe power anyway.

Hmmm, sounds like D-SLR is the worst of both worlds. What the heck, I doing it regardless.

Received my D100 yesterday. I also purchased the 17-35 f2.8 S. Focus is extremely fast and quiet. The shutter release is as fast as my film cameras. I am very pleased so far.

As far as TTL goes, I quit using TTL with my RS several years ago. I get the results I want in manual mode. I don't assume TTL vs. DTTL will be a big issue with all that many people that are used to using multiple strobes. Most underwater shots have to be shot manually anyway.

That's funny - I thought most people still shot macro in TTL.

Digital SLR's are going to be the KING of macro. I can shoot 1.5: 1 w/ my 60mm Micro.

FWIW, I used a Fuji S1pro last week and the TTL worked great. I took a bunch of portraits w/ the 60mm lens and an SB28 and got great exposures. Not sure how the TTL will perform underwater - but I can tell you this - getting good portraits of shiny/sweaty faces here in Houston isn't easy...

Well...at least you'll be able to get a housing for that D100.

Cheers

James

I have found that macro shots using TTL only come out to my expectations only if the subject fills the center one third of the viewfinder. Other factors also effect the quality of a TTL picture such as subject shape and color variances. Since most of my macro subjects are very tiny, I don't use TTL. I have become so comfortable with my camera settings in manual mode that even if a TTL shot is doable, I usually don't. You may get great results using TTL as I have shot many spectacular shots using TTL in the past. It's just that I have blown so many potentially good shots using TTL that I choose not to.