SLR/n - INTERESTING

Hello to everyone

New here although i have been sporadically following the forum for a while.

I have no gear whatsoever and am starting fresh. I guess thats nice because its like starting with a blank canvas. I used to own ( still do but the ex wife wont give it back ...ouch !!) a Cannon New F1 which i used for over 10 years. Well thats all history now. I do like Cannon so lean towards Cannon but a 1Ds is not really smart to take underwater is it ......

So which camera to buy ? S2 pro? hmmm , from what i've read and boy i've searched for any scrap of info , it gives a great picture but is somewhat "quirky". A D70 is the way i am currently leaning. An s3 Pro is just around the corner, so maybe i should wait another 2 or 3 months , but then the problem is lag time to get a housing....

So what really REALLY caught my attention here today was the posts about a SLR/n. I have considered this camera off and on for a while now. I almost bought one when the n variant came out but because there was no housing i let it go...now i hear you guys are in fact about to house this camera. Very interesting. Thing that gets my curosity up is just how good do you think this camera will be underwater ? i mean given its "problems" i would have thought all the shadows or rather dark areas inherent in underwater shots (backgrounds etc) that noise would screw the pooch ??

so now just when i had pretty much decided it was either the D70 or wait for the s3 pro.....the SLR/n may well be in the running again...

So i guess i'll sit here on the sidelines again for a while and see how this develops........but i can tell you this is a very interesting development to me.

Anyway nice to say hi to you all.

Regards

Mark

I have an S2 and a D70. In the process of selling the S2 since its near the end of its product cycle. It is an excellent camera. I love the D70, meters better, shoots faster, autofocus is faster, battery life is excellent, image quality great, wonderful raw files with nikon softtware. If you wait on the sidelines for the best digital camera you will never get one. There is always something better on the other side of the rainbow meanwhile that whale shark just swam by. I don't know anything about the slrn so someone else will have to chime in on that.

Tony

I received my SLR/n almost 2 weeks ago but won't be able to house it until the end of summer, hopefully. In the meantime I'm still shooting my D100 in L&M Titan with great results. Love the housing.

As far as the choice between the D70 & SLR/n, its apples and oranges as the price difference is huge ( although not as much as the Canon 1Ds ).

There are also housings available for the D70 NOW with others coming down the pipe.

Word on the D70 is EXCELLENT and I can certainly attest to Nikon Capture 4.1 software.

My reasons for getting the slr/n were many ( see my reply to James post

http://www.wetpixel.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic...ic-t-5726.phtml ) and I'm hoping to see other housing companies get on this bandwagon.

If I wanted to get into digital right now and not have to wait, I would probably go with the D70 and a housing of your choice. At it's price point and quality the D70 is certailnly the obvious choice over the Canon Digital Rebel which is a toy by compairson.

It also depends on what lenses your already have...if you need to invest in camera and lenses that will determine what you do down the road. One of the reasons that I went with the Kodak was all my Nikon lenses ( and certainly the huge price difference between the 1Ds and the slr/n )

Since no one has shot the slr/n underwater there is no way to determine how it will perform, but I and others on this forum have put our chips on the table so to speak, with the hope that with proper exposure and strobe lighting the slr/n will be a winner in the long run.

At it's price point and quality the D70 is certailnly the obvious choice over the Canon Digital Rebel which is a toy by compairson.

Well, the Digital Rebel is certainly no toy, it's a fantastic camera for above/underwater use. I could say it's the obvious choice over the D70 (which is actually pretty good for a Nikon), but I won't cos there's already plenty of canon vs nikon threads here and elsewhere...

Back the to slr/n

It's great that some of you have actually bought this with plans to submerge it. It's obviously an attractive camera (in the Slr/c variant) for a megapixel junky like myself. My initial enthusiasm for the Canon-mount versions has waned after doing a bit of reading (Kodak DSLR shooters seem a bit disgruntled in general), but I'll be really interested to see how it actually performs. James' initial shots look pleasing, and it must be nice to be shooting full frame again!

If I wanted to get into digital right now and not have to wait, I would probably go with the D70 and a housing of your choice. At it's price point and quality the D70 is certailnly the obvious choice over the Canon Digital Rebel which is a toy by compairson.

The 10D/DRebel has a superior image sensor than the Sony sensor in the D70/D100. See this technical comparison:

http://astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm

If you work through the number in his table in part 10, you'll find that the 10/DRebel sensor has higher charge holding capacity, lower noise, and much lower dark current which translates to about a stop in dynamic range advantage for the DRebel. The dark current is important for long exposures and does not have much consequence underwater. The D70/D100 sensor also has a especially poor blue response.

In addition the D70 suffers from a lossy raw format which is touched on in the above article and discussed in more details below

http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html

That's not to say that there hasn't great results from the D100, but the Drebel has an advantage in high contrast shots.

I guess I'm pretty good at starting controversy and pissing people off...I still maintain that I would pick the D70 at this point in time at its price point.

My comment about the Digital Rebel being a "toy" comes not from scientific or engineering mumbo jumbo but from acutally working with the cameras, looking at the construction and drawing the conclusion that the D70 is a much more robust system.

That being said....I'll be shooting a whole bunch of exterior shots over the next month in Indonesia with my slr/n and will post some images by Aug 1.

My comment about the Digital Rebel being a "toy" comes not from scientific or engineering mumbo jumbo but ....

Don't worry. Be happy. Leave the mumbo jumbo to others

Let me "plunk" my initial post in here and then add to it. New stuff at bottom:

Hi Folks,

I've had my Kodak for a few days now and got a chance to take a variety of shots this weekend in different lighting conditions. You can see some sample photos with EXIF in the comments here:

http://www.reefpix.org/gallery/album38

The camera is full frame Nikon F-mount. It has a 512 meg buffer, meaning that I can take 15 RAW photos before the camera slows down! Other nice features are dual media slots (CF and SD), magnesium body, 10-pin control port, etc.

The nicest feature is that images are 4500 pixels wide x 3000 pixels tall. That means that I can take a vertical crop of an image and it will come out the same size (3000t x 2000w) as an image from a 6 megapixel camera... A print of a ProSLRn file at 300 dpi will be 15 x 10. A 16x20 will come out at roughly 200 DPI.

In good lighting, 100% crops at ISO160 look GREAT with incredibly fine detail:

Here's the full-sized shot:

ISO160 F8 @ 1/500th Nikkor 70-180 Micro at 70mm.

In low light at ISO320 the images had noise in the shadow areas. This noise depends a lot upon where you set the shadow value in Adobe Camera Raw, as most cameras just clip these shadows to black. Here's an example where I did everything I could, but still have green noise:

Not a lot, but it's there.

Some thoughts so far based on my short time with the camera and discussions w/ other photographers are:

1) This is NOT a JPEG camera. To get the incredible dynamic range out of the shots, use Adobe Camera Raw. You may also need ACR to knock down CA in the corners of wide angle shots and it does wonders at knocking out magenta aliasing. The JPEGs that come out of the camera are not as good as the S2 or D100.

2) Shoot at the base ISO (160) or use another camera. Controlling your lighting is very important. This will probably mean macro shots will look better than wideangle.

3) The camera is incredibly tolerant of overexposure. The dual surfboard shot was overexposed by at least a stop but was easily brought down in ACR with excellent results.

4) Battery usage with the microdrive: I was able to shoot about 3 cards worth of photos (3 gigs total) before needing to rechage. That included leaving the camera in sleep mode for a few hours.

5) It takes forever for the image review to appear on the LCD display. I haven't measured, but probably 5 seconds at least...

6) The viewfinder is better than my S2 and about the same as the D100.

7) It was nice to get full-frame fisheye shots from the Nikkor 16mm. They are VERy sharp corner to corner. Shots with the "consumer" Nikkor 18-35ED were acceptable, but I think this full-frame camera demands professional quality lenses.

More thoughts and sample photos as they become available.

If there are any other ProSLRn shooters who would like to share, please jump right in. I can't wait to take this camera diving!

New Stuff

Check the Aquatica homepage at http://www.aquatica.ca for an update. They list a ProSLRn housing as available this summer as well as one for the D70. Very exciting! The ProSLRn housing should be a lot like the S2pro housing that I am already used to and like a lot.

Re: the "negative" discussions about the Kodak. Like I said, it is not a JPEG camera. You absolutely HAVE to know how to use a computer and do RAW conversions to get the best results. Most of the Kodak userbase are established "old school" studio photographers and they are having a terrible time learning how to use the Kodak software, let alone Adobe Camera Raw.

I've used the camera around the house with the 70-180 Micro and it will produce awesome results with this lens and external flash. I think the macro results from this camera will be every bit as good as the Canon 1Ds - but with the added bonus that this camera accepts Nikon's excellent line of macro lenses - a much wider selection than Canon.

For wideangle, it will be difficult to say. I think it will have about as much noise as the D100 - which people have been using underwater and are very pleased with the results.

In any case, we will see soon.

The D70 and ProSLRn are vastly different systems. If you get the D70, you will definitely want to invest in a Nikkor DX lens for wide-angle, like the 12-24DX or the 10.5 fisheye. If you go w/ the Kodak, you will be able to use the wideangle and fisheye lenses you already have, as the camera is full-frame. Both cameras are extremely fast and can write to the memory card at 4 megabytes per second.

And RE the nikon vs canon thing, don't sweat it. It's no mystery that at the lower end of the scale, Nikon is ahead with their D70 with its high speed shutter sync, it's more robust build, the excellent DX lenses, and its blazing write speed.

Cheers

James

Can someone jog by failing memory? There were some serious negatives on the 14n. Which issues were solved by the slr/n and which remain?

I also recall seeing some wierd purple stuff on the outer edges when the slr/n was used with certain Nikon lenses. What was that all about?

Also, I'm wondering about the d-TTL they have chosen. One can speculate why they chose this system, but it's a shame they didn't use i-TTL. D-TTL is dead with Nikon and the D100. I doubt we will ever see an underwater interpretaion of d-TTL

The 10D/DRebel has a superior image sensor than the Sony sensor in the D70/D100. See this technical comparison:

Perhaps, but there's more to a camera than a sensor. This is where the D70 shows its superiority. So, it depends on how one weighs the importance of various features. I wouldn't call the drebel a toy. It an SLR that uses interchangable lenses and allows shutter speed and aperture control.

Can someone jog by failing memory? There were some serious negatives on the 14n. Which issues were solved by the slr/n and which remain?

I also recall seeing some wierd purple stuff on the outer edges when the slr/n was used with certain Nikon lenses. What was that all about?

Certain lenses (The 85 mm f1.4, for instance) showed severe bichrominance and chromatic abberation, and sometimes showed a reflection of the rear element as the dreaded "red spot". Photodesk has quite nice controls to correct the bichrominance and chromatic abberations, and the issue with the individual lenses has been addressed by optimising the software used for raw conversion with settings for the individual lenses in question.

Also, I'm wondering about the d-TTL they have chosen. One can speculate why they chose this system, but it's a shame they didn't use i-TTL. D-TTL is dead with Nikon and the D100. I doubt we will ever see an underwater interpretaion of d-TTL

Agreed...

Craig's pretty much said it. Another issue with the 14n is that it never really went to sleep when not in use. It would use a lot of battery power up while just sitting there and it was a pain to turn it on and off because it would want to recalibrate each time.

This has been fixed with the SLRn and I am quite happy with its battery consumption. I'd say it's now good for a full day's diving. With a 4 gig card, you could probably leave it in the housing all day (you can fit about 240 RAW shots on a 4 gig MD).

Cheers

James

It sounds like it is going to be an awesome camera UW, James. Looking forward to seeing your results later in the summer!

Alex

James, Looks like you'll have quite a setup.

Coincidently, Phil at dpreview.com just put up a review of it's twin the SLR/c. I think the sensor and imaging processing are about the same between the two. The comparison to the 1Ds is interesting.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/kodakslrc/page22.asp

Looks like by not using an antialias filter, Kodak opted for higher resolution and suffers more moire artifacts.

Yep, the review is interesting. Like Phil says, they are two totally different beasts. The Canon is a lot bigger and heavier but it's a different metal in the body and weather sealed. Yes, the sensor is the same in the SLRn and the SLRc. I agree with most of the points in Phil's review. This is not a camera if you aim to shoot above ISO400, but then, I seldom do, and/or I can use a D100 or S2 for that.

The artifacts appear when you are shooting fine repetitive detail like roof shingles or fabric. I doubt it will be a problem underwater, but even if it is, ACR does a good job of recognizing it and knocking it down. You'll notice that Phil used Photo Desk 4 to do his RAW conversions and it is not as good at knocking down the aliasing (it appears as purple in-between black detail). On the other hand, you get incredibly fine detail which is a plus.

Check out the 10th image down in Herb's link. The dark gray box with the ruled lines. Now tell me the Canon has lower noise than the Kodak...they look about the same to me. Check out the images showing the text - you can actually read the writing and it's not fuzzy like in the AA filtered canon shot. Knock out the magenta and you've got an incredibly hi-rez image.

Cheers

James

Oh, and just to sweeten the pot a bit - the MSRP for the ProSLRn is $4,995, but they can be had NEW on Ebay for $3,750 I called Kodak to check on this and the warranty that comes with the camera is good for one year regardless of where you buy it. Even if you buy one used, the warranty is transferrable.

Cheers

James

Here are some thoughts on the SLR/n for underwater.

It has the highest resolving power of any digital SLR owing to its pixel count and lack of antialiasing filter and microlens array. The lack of microlens causes chromatic shifts with some lenses but that has been addressed with the newest firmware. The lack of AA filter gives rise to potential color aliasing which is handled well by color noise reduction in ACR. On the plus side, the Kodak doesn't suffer so much from edge softness like the 1Ds does. It has lens sensitivities like the 1Ds but the issues are different.

Underwater, color aliasing may not occur because the water and port may reduce the resolving power of the optics below the threshold of the sensor. This, plus ACR, makes me unconcerned with purple fringing issues.

Kodak cameras have a bad reputation for noise but it is only partially deserved. By default, the camera delivers as much as 10 stops of dynamic range and reserves at least a stop for ERI. Learning how to shoot and run the RAW converter completely addresses the noise problem and that will certainly not be a limitation underwater (provided ISO 160 is OK). BTW, the SLR/n is really more like ISO 100 one you consider ERI. If you don't like the noise the Kodak produces, chop off the lower two stops in the RAW converter like EVERY other digital SLR does already. You'll find the SLR/n is not noisier than the 1Ds (though the 1Ds is not especially low-noise).

What they fixed between the 14n and the SLR/n.

- The lopsided sensor site that gave rise to the huge lens compatability problems.

- The terrible power management.

- The red spotting problem (changed the IR filter to an absorbtion type).

- Radial color shifts (with firmware 5).

- Improved base ISO from 80 (really about 40) to 160 (really about 100).

While the Kodak is nowhere near the 1Ds as a pro body and lacks the fast strobe sync, it may well outresolve the Canon. It costs half as much and weighs a pound less. The weight is a serious concern as anyone housing a 1Ds can tell you. I expect the Kodak to easier to balance underwater than any pro body although that's subjective.

I just got a chance to read the SLR/c review at dpreview.com, and my take on it is that given how liberal Phil generally is with praise, the "recommeded" rating at the end of the review is a very nice way of saying "great idea but lacking in execution".

I tend to think that either would be a great UW camera, given that most lighting is strobe powered at low ISO. That being said, Even at $3750 on eBay, I wouldn't choose the /c over the MkII, because I feel the MkII is a much more rounded camera. In properly controlled circumstances, the SLR/c would be great, but the added resolution just isn't worth it to me.

You may find prices on ebay and on other websites for the slr/n below $4K, but the real streat price is $4500 from reputable dealers like B&H.

When you see a camera like the slr/n at $3780 it is very likely that what should cost $30-$40 in shipping will be $200 with some of this other vendors. In addition when you inquire about purchase your are advised that, "oh you will have to buy the battery charger, and battery separate. which is total BS because these are accessories that are included in the original box.

so you wind up paying the same if not more from these low ball dealers. One to stay away from for sure are Broadway Video. The bottom line is the final shipped price to your door. I stick with B&H & Adorama as benchmarks for price, customer service and reliabliltiy.

I agree with Rod - there are some sleazy operators out there. But that's life and it's like that in every business. Of course, buyer beware when it comes to Ebay. I didn't get my camera from one of the "sleezy New York" shops but from a private seller. Ebay has an excellent feedback system, so you can see if buyers are happy with a certain Ebay seller. Unless a scammer has stolen a good seller's credentials, you can be pretty confident that someone w/ thousands of positive feedbacks will go the extra mile to keep their good record. That's what I've found at least. Buying anything on Ebay is a risk, so I always make sure to talk with the person, get a name and physical address, and get comfortable that I'm not sending my money off into a black hole. If you buy a new unopened box you can be reasonably sure that the vendor hasn't pulled out any of the software, power cords, etc. My Kodak ProSLRn came shrinkwrapped and I saved enough to buy a 17-35 AF-S lens. But YMMV and as always, do your own due diligence.

RE the weight: remember it's not just the weight of the camera - it's the whole setup. The bigger the camera body, the heavier the housing is going to be. The 1Ds housing is VERY big and no matter how you cut it, the whole setup is going to weigh a ton - just ask Eric. To look at both ends of the weight spectrum, the UK Germany housing for the 10D vs a Seacam housing for a 1DS - the latter probably weighs about 3x as much as the former. If the housing is well balanced underwater (weight vs buoyancy) then this isn't a problem at all, except for gettin in and out of the water. But if the housing is very negative underwater, it can be VERY tiring to try and shoot macro.

Cheers

James

Hi There James, Craig ,all

Well some very interesting points of view and some excellant feed back. I just wonder how good its going to be. When the 14N was first announced i got myself a brochure from Kodak and spent many many long nights in Lusaka sitting in my room after dark dreaming about housing a 14N. At the time the S2Pro was JUST being housed and was all new and wonderful in the underwater world. I would often go home for a few months only to come back out to the world and see The 14N had been delayed YET AGAIN and AGAIN......then when it finally saw the light of day ...well what a disapointment...the SLR/N fixed some of the issues but you cant get away from some of the remaining "issues" this camera has. the best advice i saw for this camera is you buy it with your eyes wide open knowing what you are getting into. Like many of you i ghost DPReviews forums and have been following along since 2002. Been many many interesting points of view and experiences. Some can apparently make it sing while others give up in dispair. By all accounts if you can use it within its "niche zone" or window of suitable lighting situations it is a stunner. Veer slighty out of its rather narrow comfort zone and you are in trouble. O.K thats well documented.

Where we go into unchatered territory is underwater. Full frame, 14Mp, good DR. Hmm as you say most shots under water are flash......sounds like underwater could be one of its "niche areas of potential". Maybe we are on to something. Now let me state something right here , now. I have never used a digital camera ( well professional model anyway) but i do have 14 years as a professional photographer and 10 years as a prolab owner behind me. i know a little bit. Not much but i do know i want as much resolving power as possible. Years in a darkroom creating custom hand enlargements taught me you can never have too much resolving power. Years in that very same darkroom taught me that i rarely if ever printed an enlargement without cropping to improve the picture. The more MP the better for this. No , i've never shot an underwater photo in my life but i do work underwater professionally these days ( got out of the prolab in 96 as i saw the writing on the wall....the photography , well after 14 years meeting demanding client briefs i wanted a change). So what i do know is clients want to see all the detail and colour of the fishes they love to see. So it seems resolving power, MP , full frame and good DR is just what the doctor ordered. But will it work out that way ?

Well there's one or two people here leading the charge. My pockets are no longer deep enough to be a pioneer so i'll sit on the side lines and watch but i can tell you reading these posts has me pawing over the calculater again and rethinking it all through. I do want to get back into photgraphy in my new profession and i want a complete new setup from scratch. It seems the nikon lens system is the way forward. I am hesitant about the DX system however which is another point in favour of the SLR/N. I suppose digital is only going to get more refined and technically advanced as time goes by. This infers full frame for all one day. Is it not better to have a stable of full frame sensor sized lenses rather then Dx types ???? another debate i guess.

What i do see however is the cost of the camera is largely irrelevant. The housing , strobe, lens setup costs far far more and once you decide on a body you'd better be sure you choose the right one.......my gut feeling is the SLR/N is only going to get better and better. In our niche field of use perhaps this will be the "one"

Will be watching this space very very carefully indeed. Only problem is i was going to make the plunge next month...now ??? Yes i know , i know what you are going to say but htis is a sizable investment, i want to get it right form day one......which is why this forum is worth its weight in gold...

best Regards

Mark