E-M10: Why no 2nd-C flash for P or A modes?

I posted a more detailed version of this in the Mirrorless subforum, but have gotten no answers.

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?s=64556a8a7f70f4b6da09b53684121904&showtopic=58412

Can anyone tell me what my Olympus OM-D E-M10 has a 2nd-C flash setting for S and M modes, but it doesn't offer the same for P or A modes?

In P or A, the only 2nd curtain sync option it offers is SLOW2 which gives VERY slow shutter speeds. In S or M, it has Fill-in Flash, which syncs to the 1st curtain, and 2nd-C which appears to work just the same but sync to the 2nd curtain.

In P and A it has Auto and Fill-in, which both sync to the 1st curtain, but no flash mode that works the same as Fill-in except to sync with the 2nd curtain.

Why is that?

I want to use A mode with Fill-in flash synced to the 2nd curtain and my camera doesn't seem to have a way to do that. My thought is to use A mode to control depth of field and 2nd curtain sync so that if a fish is swimming fast, it will have a trail behind instead of in front.

I'd also like to know why, when I use A mode and SLOW2, my camera is firing the flash twice. The manual seems to indicate it should only fire once, just before the 2nd curtain. It's easy to tell that it flashes twice when the shutter is open for 15 to 30 seconds.

Thanks in advance for any help.

ps. Yes, I know someone is going to say "just use M mode". Thanks, but that doesn't answer my questions. :-) If I'm trying to take pictures of sharks, there's a good chance I won't have the time to sort out good M settings (I think), so I want to take advantage of the "help" the camera will give me in A mode. Furthermore, I just want to understand the theory and why the camera doesn't have 2nd-C in A mode.

P and A = doesn't control the shutter. The shutter is slow because it tries to achieve the exposure compensation you want

And 2nd Sync is used to fill in the subject at the end of the motion in the shutter open duration. Since you aren't controlling the shutter speed, then the maker's logic is there's no requirement for 2nd curtain sync flash.

Example on land. You are in dark environment. You try to take a picture of someone writing I LOVE U with light. So, u set the amount of time he/she require to write the entire phrase as shutter speed. So u click the shutter say 10s and he/she started drawing and finalize with U at 10s. Right before the shutter closes, flash burst in and filled the homosapien with the light at the end of U and you'll get a trail light I LOVE U with the homosapien and the U instead of I. It's to show trail of movement and direction of motion...

Underwater, u might need to pre-illuminate the subject with a lower light source and burst the strobe to still the subject at it's final position before the shutter cloese...

That's the purpose and logic for the 2nd sync instead of just filling in the subject. It's to capture motion and direction of movement.

If shooting a shark with external strobe, what I will do is to use M. Set the shutter speed to 1/125-1/200. Use my aperture to for background control. Let the strobe to take care of the shark.

Just my 2 cents.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

P and A = doesn't control the shutter. The shutter is slow because it tries to achieve the exposure compensation you want

I understand the rest of what you said, but this statement still doesn't explain to me why there is not a 2nd-C setting for A mode.

Let me give the example here that I gave in my other thread:

I set the camera to S mode, 1/60 speed, 2nd-C flash, and take a picture. The camera used ISO 200 (in ISO-A mode) and f/3.5. I got a nice photo.

I take the same picture, but with the camera in A mode and set to f/3.5. In fill-in flash mode, I get basically the same picture as in S mode. But, since the only option for 2nd curtain sync in A mode is SLOW2, I set it to that and I get a shutter speed of 15 seconds.

What I want (in that case) is A mode to have a 2nd-C option. When I set it to f/3.5, it should pick a shutter speed of 1/60th and flash just before the 2nd curtain and give me the same picture as when I used 1/60 in S mode.

Why does that not make sense? It seems like any camera mode that offers "Fill-in Flash" should also offer "2nd-C" and the ONLY difference between the two would be whether the flash fires immediately or at the end. A and P mode both offer Fill-in, so why not offer the same thing (in those modes) but flashing at the end instead of the beginning?

If I'm shooting a shark, what if 1/125 - 1/200 is too fast and it causes me to have an aperture so large that half the shark is out of focus? Why not let me use A mode and set the aperture for the depth of field that I want? Then the camera can use the fastest shutter speed that will work. If there's not enough light (or strobe power) to get the photo I want, then either the shark will be blurry (from motion) or underexposed. If there IS enough light, then I'll get the photo I want.

Doing it the way you described leaves me open to having enough light (and/or strobe power) but still not getting the photo I want because I needed to use a lower shutter speed to get enough DoF. OTOH, if I set a lower shutter speed manually, then some situations might result in subject blur because the shark was moving too quickly. I have no real experience, so my statements are just based on book-learning, but it seems like using A mode reduces the number of cases that will cause me to not get the photo I want. IF there is enough light, then A mode should always allow me to the DoF I want and get the fastest shutter speed possible, thus, minimizing the chance of a blurry photo due to subject motion.

If I manually set the shutter speed, then I could miss some shots because the subject was still but the shutter was too fast and the available light (or strobe power) needed me to use a lower speed in order to achieve the desired DoF. And miss other shots because the subject was moving and I needed a faster shutter speed to not get motion blur.

"A" mode would let me always get the desired DoF and the only reason I would not get the shot is if there just wasn't enough light available. Compensating with a slower shutter or a bigger aperture would have ruined the shot anyway.

Or maybe my lack of real experience is just being made glaringly obvious here...?

A very direct answer would be: The A is not designed to capture motion trail.

And P is just automatic with exposure compensation and on and off strobes. Technically, u are not allowed to do anything. Reason is, it's designed for people with slightly better experience than auto shooter.

Ok, discussion. If you are using a wide angle, setting to F8-F11 gives u sufficient DOF to capture the entire shark if ur distance allows u to frame the entire shark. And always, strobes is the key to 99% of successful photography.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

A very direct answer would be: The A is not designed to capture motion trail.

 

And P is just automatic with exposure compensation and on and off strobes. Technically, u are not allowed to do anything. Reason is, it's designed for people with slightly better experience than auto shooter.

 

Ok, discussion. If you are using a wide angle, setting to F8-F11 gives u sufficient DOF to capture the entire shark if ur distance allows u to frame the entire shark. And always, strobes is the key to 99% of successful photography.

Right. So, to make the answer even simpler. There is no good reason that A doesn't offer 2nd-C. Olympus just didn't foresee someone wanting to do what I want to do, so they didn't put it in.

As for using f/8 - 11, I understand. Unfortunately, the camera doesn't let me lock in f/8 and then let it automatically choose the shutter speed and flash duration - that is, IF I want it to do 2nd curtain sync instead of 1st curtain.

But, HOLD THE PRESSES, maybe I've just realized what the real deal is. At least, for my case. If the subject is close enough to be illuminated by the strobe, then the strobe will freeze it and there will be no "motion trail". And if the subject is not illuminated by the flash, then it won't matter whether the flash is Fill-in or 2nd-C. Am I getting it now? And is that really true? What if ambient light is almost good enough for the shot by itself? So the flash fires the minimum amount possible. In that case, with the flash set to Fill-in, won't I still be likely to have some motion blur? I mean, in A mode with the flash, won't the camera use 1/60th for the shutter speed always? Or if there is a lot of ambient light, will it use a faster shutter speed, even when the flash is set to Fill-in?

I really appreciate you trying to help me. I am sorry that I am such a newb that my questions must be trying your patience.

I posted a more detailed version of this in the Mirrorless subforum, but have gotten no answers.

 

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?s=64556a8a7f70f4b6da09b53684121904&showtopic=58412

 

Can anyone tell me what my Olympus OM-D E-M10 has a 2nd-C flash setting for S and M modes, but it doesn't offer the same for P or A modes?

 

In P or A, the only 2nd curtain sync option it offers is SLOW2 which gives VERY slow shutter speeds. In S or M, it has Fill-in Flash, which syncs to the 1st curtain, and 2nd-C which appears to work just the same but sync to the 2nd curtain.

 

In P and A it has Auto and Fill-in, which both sync to the 1st curtain, but no flash mode that works the same as Fill-in except to sync with the 2nd curtain.

 

Why is that?

 

I want to use A mode with Fill-in flash synced to the 2nd curtain and my camera doesn't seem to have a way to do that. My thought is to use A mode to control depth of field and 2nd curtain sync so that if a fish is swimming fast, it will have a trail behind instead of in front.

 

I'd also like to know why, when I use A mode and SLOW2, my camera is firing the flash twice. The manual seems to indicate it should only fire once, just before the 2nd curtain. It's easy to tell that it flashes twice when the shutter is open for 15 to 30 seconds.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

ps. Yes, I know someone is going to say "just use M mode". Thanks, but that doesn't answer my questions. :-) If I'm trying to take pictures of sharks, there's a good chance I won't have the time to sort out good M settings (I think), so I want to take advantage of the "help" the camera will give me in A mode. Furthermore, I just want to understand the theory and why the camera doesn't have 2nd-C in A mode.

As I read your question, and then review the E-M10 manual, what you are really asking is "Why is the E-M10 designed to operate the way it does". And it is NOT designed to do what you are trying to accomplish. To do what you want to can only be done in S/M modes. In both of these modes, you set the shutter speed and the camera then knows what to do with the flash in relation to the curtain. In P/A modes, the camera is using the shutter speed adjustment, in combination with the aperture, to achieve a good image and is unable to tack a flash on the end of the activity (2nd curtain). There's just too many variables to manage. So the answer really is "just use M mode" or S. With experience, and it doesn't really take all that long, you will be able to 'guess' at an initial setting. Take a shot. Review the image. Make adjustments. The shark will more than likely still be there for another shot.

Bob W

 

Right. So, to make the answer even simpler. There is no good reason that A doesn't offer 2nd-C. Olympus just didn't foresee someone wanting to do what I want to do, so they didn't put it in.

 

As for using f/8 - 11, I understand. Unfortunately, the camera doesn't let me lock in f/8 and then let it automatically choose the shutter speed and flash duration - that is, IF I want it to do 2nd curtain sync instead of 1st curtain.

 

But, HOLD THE PRESSES, maybe I've just realized what the real deal is. At least, for my case. If the subject is close enough to be illuminated by the strobe, then the strobe will freeze it and there will be no "motion trail". And if the subject is not illuminated by the flash, then it won't matter whether the flash is Fill-in or 2nd-C. Am I getting it now? And is that really true? What if ambient light is almost good enough for the shot by itself? So the flash fires the minimum amount possible. In that case, with the flash set to Fill-in, won't I still be likely to have some motion blur? I mean, in A mode with the flash, won't the camera use 1/60th for the shutter speed always? Or if there is a lot of ambient light, will it use a faster shutter speed, even when the flash is set to Fill-in?

 

I really appreciate you trying to help me. I am sorry that I am such a newb that my questions must be trying your patience.

Not olympus, dslr from other make doesn't provide 2nd sync on A/P too...

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

If you shoot at less than 1/60 or 1/30 the strobe will not freeze motion. 2nd curtain will only make the movement trail behind the subject and not in front as first curtain would do. If you want to get a shark on second curtain at low shutter speed it will have a moving trail supposing that it does not change direction during the shot writing off the whole image. In most cases sharks don't come so close that you need small apertures unless you use a rectilinear lens. For the micro four third a good lens for shark is the 9-18mm or the 7-14mm. With those lenses in blue water you can shoot f/5.6 without worrying for blurred corners as there is no reef background. A typical shot for a slow moving shark is f/5.6 1/60 ISO 100. You can then increase to 1/125 ISO 200. At this shutter speed there is no difference between first or second curtain. With wider aperture there is less need to use a lot of strobe power that could cause highlights on the white belly of the shark. There are standard techniques to shoot sharks and unless you want a motion trail I have never heard of anyone using second curtain