D850 metering problem

I just recently upgraded to a Nikon D850 in an Aquatica housing. Using Ikelite DS161 strobes, non TTL. I am having a strange problem and I cannot seem to pin it down. I'll try to summarize it, and any advice/insights are appreciated:

- I am shooting in manual mode

- When I am in darker lighting conditions, on the bottom, the command dial is unresponsive to adjusting the metering to slower shutter speeds. For example, I cannot go slower 1/50 when I want to go down to 1/20 or less. I can adjust it up to faster shutter speeds though.

- It works in shallow water (20') and on the surface

- I cannot replicate the problem on the surface. Even pushing other buttons I can't simulate a lockout.

- As an experiment, I turned off "flash" in the camera settings and took the camera down to 110' in very dark water and the dial adjusted fine to whatever I wanted to meter to, but I had no strobes working as a result of disabling flash. I only did this for a few minutes, not the entire dive so I can't rule out this happens over a longer period of time under pressure.

I have considered that maybe this is a button issue locking me out, but where it worked fine during the dive with the flash off, it makes me think this is a setting issue.

Could it be a short in my sync cable? A setting in the D850 camera for exposure or flash?

I've been pouring over the D850 manual and getting nowhere. 

Any thoughts or suggestions? Before I contact Aquatica I wanted to rule in/out a mechanical issue. This seems too inconsistent to be a mechanical/button issue.

Thanks for any help!
Heather

My wild guess would be housing problem. Under pressure minor deformation of the housing makes contact between command dial and rubberized wheel weaker to a level of not enough friction. As far as I heard it was often (???)  applicable to Ikelite housings. But, please remember: all of the above is just my wild guess 

My initial thought too was a button slightly out of alignment or a lever not set quite right in the housing. I would not have thought a deformation given the materials used by Aquatica.

I don't think it will be a faulty sync cable; nor something you have got wrong in the settings.

Have you tried switching from Manual mode to something else and seeing if the speed issue is the same? Perhaps using Shutter priority and see what happens then? or Aperture priority and seeing if your camera can get to the speeds you wern't able to access on Manual?

1 hour ago, LeeCat said:

My wild guess would be housing problem. Under pressure minor deformation of the housing makes contact between command dial and rubberized wheel weaker to a level of not enough friction. As far as I heard it was often (???)  applicable to Ikelite housings. But, please remember: all of the above is just my wild guess 

 

Thanks, yes, this is a very reasonable suggestion.

42 minutes ago, TimG said:

My initial thought too was a button slightly out of alignment or a lever not set quite right in the housing. I would not have thought a deformation given the materials used by Aquatica.

I don't think it will be a faulty sync cable; nor something you have got wrong in the settings.

Have you tried switching from Manual mode to something else and seeing if the speed issue is the same? Perhaps using Shutter priority and see what happens then? or Aperture priority and seeing if your camera can get to the speeds you wern't able to access on Manual?

 

Thanks. I am going to contact Aquatica. The thought of sending this back to them makes me want to scream into a pillow. :-)

I have not tried the other modes - it's a good suggestion, but I have to be underwater, see the problem, and think of the idea then or already have it in mind so I haven't had enough opportunities yet to do that. And the dive where it did not appear to happen when I had the flash off it was just a few minutes before I put the camera away (the vis was 3-5'). 

Heather

Yeah, pretty annoying, Heather especially if you think you might need to send it to Aquatica - but then at last you're in the right continent!

But definitely worth playing around with it some more yet.

Curious that it did not appear to happen with the flash off.

If it's a control arm or lever which is slightly out of alignment that should be re-creatable above water. I'd have another go at trying to recreate the problem above water. Stick the camera in the housing and go through the various things you did underwater and see what happens.

As I said, I would not have thought it would be a pressure issue with an Aquatica - but you can't rule that out completely especailly if you can't recreate the problem topside.

I'm sure other Aquatica users will chip-in before long too.....

42 minutes ago, TimG said:

Yeah, pretty annoying, Heather especially if you think you might need to send it to Aquatica - but then at last you're in the right continent!

But definitely worth playing around with it some more yet.

Curious that it did not appear to happen with the flash off.

If it's a control arm or lever which is slightly out of alignment that should be re-creatable above water. I'd have another go at trying to recreate the problem above water. Stick the camera in the housing and go through the various things you did underwater and see what happens.

As I said, I would not have thought it would be a pressure issue with an Aquatica - but you can't rule that out completely especailly if you can't recreate the problem topside.

I'm sure other Aquatica users will chip-in before long too.....

 

Thanks. I have tried everything and cannot recreate it on the bench. We've looked over the control arm to see if it was slipping on the knob and it isn't - it's a flat face that the set screw comes into. It is weird it didn't happen with the flash off, the one difference was the camera wasn't in use for very long because the conditions were so poor so maybe this is a function of time too. I emailed Aquatica.

Definitely open to all ideas and suggestions!

Thanks,
Heather

I've seen other cameras where there is an option to limit shutter speeds when the flash is on.  Have a look in the menu guide here:  http://crossgate.nikonimglib.com/dsd_redirect/redirect.do?P=ugI9J43&R=XlfTV08&L=XNIru04&O=MWv4t00

and go to page 127, e2 flash shutter speed and see where that is set.

42 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

I've seen other cameras where there is an option to limit shutter speeds when the flash is on.  Have a look in the menu guide here:  http://crossgate.nikonimglib.com/dsd_redirect/redirect.do?P=ugI9J43&R=XlfTV08&L=XNIru04&O=MWv4t00

and go to page 127, e2 flash shutter speed and see where that is set.

Thanks. I did see this setting but I assumed it would only apply for programmed auto or aperture priority modes not manual. Is my read correct or would this also be a setting relevant for manual mode? The last sentence makes me think maybe it does apply ... BUT the default was set for 1/60 and I was able to get down to 1/50 on a dive where I had issues.

”This option determines the slowest shutter speed available when using front- or rear-curtain sync or red-eye reduction in programmed auto or aperture-priority auto exposure modes (regardless of the setting chosen, shutter speeds can be as slow as 30 s in shutter-priority auto and manual exposure modes or at flash settings of slow sync, slow rear-curtain sync, or red-eye reduction with slow sync).”

so to be clear the command dial allows you to change shutter speed but won't go below 1/50 sec so it works up to that point and you can raise the shutter speed as high as you like?  

Doesn't sound like a problem with a button to me - how would the button know that you had reached 1/50?  The command dial is just a click wheel - no absolute positions so it either works or it doesn't.  But you say it doesn't happen in shallow water which tends to indicate a pressure issue.

When you say you try to replicate on the surface do you also make sure it is dark enough that you want shutter speed in that range?   You can test out the behavior of the menu item by setting a different shutter speed and see where it locks out in various menu settings. 

You could try to reduce it to a very low number on your next dive - can't hurt and would rule that out as an issue.

9 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

so to be clear the command dial allows you to change shutter speed but won't go below 1/50 sec so it works up to that point and you can raise the shutter speed as high as you like?  

Doesn't sound like a problem with a button to me - how would the button know that you had reached 1/50?  The command dial is just a click wheel - no absolute positions so it either works or it doesn't.  But you say it doesn't happen in shallow water which tends to indicate a pressure issue.

When you say you try to replicate on the surface do you also make sure it is dark enough that you want shutter speed in that range?   You can test out the behavior of the menu item by setting a different shutter speed and see where it locks out in various menu settings. 

You could try to reduce it to a very low number on your next dive - can't hurt and would rule that out as an issue.

Yes, on the last dive I was only able to get down to 1/50 when I was at 30m and inside a wreck with dimmer light. It could go up although I didn’t test to see how high. When I got to 6m on deco the dial worked fine up and down but there was also plenty of ambient light. 

The next day on another dive when I disabled the flash it worked fine as low as I wanted it to go at 30m in very dark conditions. But I only used the camera for about 10 min vs 40 min the day prior  - if that matters. 
 

Today I set up the camera in the housing with strobes in a dark room with a dim flashlight on the other side of the room to simulate darker dive conditions. The command dial worked fine and I could meter as low as I wanted. 
 

I agree with you the mechanical wheel either works or doesn’t. This is what makes me think it’s a setting issue. But then why can’t I replicate it? 
 

Thanks for brainstorming!

No worries - very annoying problem .   I agree it should either work or not - the classic button problem is that it won't accept any input.  Try also setting up in the housing and pulling maximum vacuum to load up the buttons a little and try each button in turn to see if any of them prevent input from the command dial.  I would expect if any button prevents input it should prevent any input - not just input down to 1/50.

Another thing to try to eliminate mechanical problems is -if the option is available - swap shutter speed to the other command dial.  It may or may not change anything juts worth a try.

21 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

No worries - very annoying problem .   I agree it should either work or not - the classic button problem is that it won't accept any input.  Try also setting up in the housing and pulling maximum vacuum to load up the buttons a little and try each button in turn to see if any of them prevent input from the command dial.  I would expect if any button prevents input it should prevent any input - not just input down to 1/50.

Another thing to try to eliminate mechanical problems is -if the option is available - swap shutter speed to the other command dial.  It may or may not change anything juts worth a try.

 

Thanks for these suggestions too. I contacted Aquatica and they are consulting with their design engineer. I didn’t pull a vacuum when I did the dark room experiment so I will repeat. The saga continues...

Hi Everyone-

Just a quick update - it seems we've found the problem. Norma at Aquatica did some troubleshooting with me and pinpointed what appears to be the issue. The rubber gear that moves the command dial inside the housing is able to spin on the shaft. It should not spin. It needs glue, and ultimately replacement. So, hopefully this solves it. I also got a few other pro tips from Norma (she is amazing!) on how to manage having such a heavy lens in the housing. They've been really great and hopefully I'll be sorted soon. 

Heather

Oh wow! Thanks for letting us know. That makes complete sense. And an easy fix. Yay!!!!

Great news.

hopefully that is the solution - let us know if it goes away!