Tokina 10-17 vs. Canon 8-15 for Sony a6400

Normally, I would get the Tokina and call it a day.

However, I also have a Sony a7r4 that I use for above water. I'm considering taking the plunge (as it were) and getting a housing at some point in the next year or two. If I were to do that, the Canon would be the right choice for that camera.

So, with an upgrade path in mind, I could get the Canon lens/adapter and protect that investment.

Any thoughts?

Is anybody using the Canon with a Sony APS-C camera? If so, what port & dome setup for a Nauticam housing? The Nauticam Sony N85 port chart doesn't list the Canon lens (hence, it might not even be a good idea to begin with).

Thanks,

- brett

Hi Brett,

I can not tell about Sony A6400 and APS-C, but use both lenses on MFT (EM1II and EM5II).

#1.: N85 mount: I use a N185-N120 adapter and have both domeports (Nauticam 140 and Zen DP170) in N120 versions (I also plan to upgrade to FF in the future). The lenses with zoomgear are inserted once the camera is in the housing - not a big deal. I insert first the camera with some small lens on it, e.g. Zuiko 60mm macro and final exchange for the fisheye is only a short moment, minimizing the risk of pollution of the sensor. I would assume with Sony it can be done similar, but has, of course, to be checked before purchase.. .

#2.: Tokina vs. Canon: while the Canon is perfect for the smaller MFT sensor as it is, the Tokina is for APS-C. One can use the Canon with Kenko 1.4x teleconverter (would be the optimum for APS-C), still very good IQ, but with EM1II the AF becomes sluggish, adapting lenses has its price...

Wolfgang

The crop factor on the 8-15 FF lens on APS-C makes it not a common or desirable lens option. I shoot the 10-17 with a Sigma MC-11 on an A6100.

16 hours ago, Lewis88 said:

The crop factor on the 8-15 FF lens on APS-C makes it not a common or desirable lens option. I shoot the 10-17 with a Sigma MC-11 on an A6100.

Surely the 8-15 on an APS-C sensor makes it almost equivalent to the Tokina 10-17, which is desirable and useful, whereas on FF it has no more utility than a Sigma 15 fisheye unless you like gimmicks.

The reason it's not common is likely that the Canon lens costs significantly more.  Plus you lose a little zoom range it's only full frame from 10/11mm upwards it also has an APS-C switch which locks it to full frame only.  It does have better image quality than the Tokina though.

I'm using both the (Nikkor) 8-15 and Tokina 10-17 on an APS-C sensor (Nikon D500). 

As Chris points out - and as Adam and Alex discuss in an earlier edition of Wetpixel Live, the 8-15 is significantly more expensive than the Tokina and underwater on APS-C is not really worth the extra cost. But if you have full frame (which I use topside) the Tokina, in my view, is horrible and the 8-15 excellent. 

Underwater the 8-15 on APS-C is, as you say, very much like the 10-17 and the zoom range is more useable than on full frame - which, as many will point out, only really offers 2 settings: 8mm (some see as gimmicky) and something similar to the Sigma 15mm. But on APS-C it does produce a much more useable range of focal lengths. At a price!

I'd suggest if you are sticking with APS-C sensors, then go with the Tokina. But if full frame is on the horizon, it's the 8-15. 

3 hours ago, TimG said:

 

I'm using both the (Nikkor) 8-15 and Tokina 10-17 on an APS-C sensor (Nikon D500). 

As Chris points out - and as Adam and Alex discuss in an earlier edition of Wetpixel Live, the 8-15 is significantly more expensive than the Tokina and underwater on APS-C is not really worth the extra cost. But if you have full frame (which I use topside) the Tokina, in my view, is horrible and the 8-15 excellent. 

Underwater the 8-15 on APS-C is, as you say, very much like the 10-17 and the zoom range is more useable than on full frame - which, as many will point out, only really offers 2 settings: 8mm (some see as gimmicky) and something similar to the Sigma 15mm. But on APS-C it does produce a much more useable range of focal lengths. At a price!

I'd suggest if you are sticking with APS-C sensors, then go with the Tokina. But if full frame is on the horizon, it's the 8-15. 

Thanks, Tim.

Yeah, that is my theory and there is a reasonably good chance I'll get a housing for my FF in the next 12-18 months.

If I can't spend my money on dive trips (my April trip to the Oriskany canceled this week and I think my June Bikini Atoll trip is now on the chopping block), then I might as well spend it on camera gear and stay local.

Two follow-up questions, if you don't mind:

1. Which dome do you use with the D500 and the Nikkor 8-15 and which dome for the Tokina 10-17?

2. When do you decide to use one vs. the other on a dive? I.e., if the Canon is a much better lens, when would you use the Tokina instead?

Thanks,

- brett

Hi Brett

Q1. I've got both a 100mm and 8" dome (Subal ones) and interchange them for no obvious reason. If there is a chance I'll shoot over/unders I'll use the 8". But other than that.. day or the week, colour of the moon.... maybe a preference to the 100m as you can get closer and its more manoeuvrable in tight spaces.

Q2. If you are using the Tokina on an APS-C there is, to my eyes, no visible difference between that and the 8-15. So no particular preference in using either lens although maybe, psychologically, I might use the 8-15 a bit more as it's more expensive so it must be better, right? 

2 hours ago, TimG said:

Hi Brett

Q1. I've got both a 100mm and 8" dome (Subal ones) and interchange them for no obvious reason. If there is a chance I'll shoot over/unders I'll use the 8". But other than that.. day or the week, colour of the moon.... maybe a preference to the 100m as you can get closer and its more manoeuvrable in tight spaces.

Q2. If you are using the Tokina on an APS-C there is, to my eyes, no visible difference between that and the 8-15. So no particular preference in using either lens although maybe, psychologically, I might use the 8-15 a bit more as it's more expensive so it must be better, right? 

 

Yes, but of course! 

Thanks for the tips and follow-up, Tim.

I just preemptively pushed out my June 2021 Bikini trip to Aug 2022 to get a guaranteed seat so maybe I'll spend my 2021 budget on a new Canon lens, dome port, and adapter (I'll start a new thread on the adapter part).

Thanks,

- brett

Pity on the Bikini trip, Brett. That would have been something.

Good diving though here in St Martin. And easy to get to..... AND you could probably do the diving AND get the gear you're looking at. What's there not to love? 

6 hours ago, TmxDiver said:

Two follow-up questions, if you don't mind:

1. Which dome do you use with the D500 and the Nikkor 8-15 and which dome for the Tokina 10-17?

2. When do you decide to use one vs. the other on a dive? I.e., if the Canon is a much better lens, when would you use the Tokina instead?

Thanks,

- brett

If you have a Nauticam housing, the dome of choice would seem to be the140mm dome, You would need to work out how much extension was required to use with your current housing, but it would migrate directly over to a Sony full frame using the dedicated N100-N120 adapter for Canon lenses.   You would only change the adapter/extension.

If you look at the port charts the Tokina 10-17 on e-mount needs the 50mm N85-N120 adapter and the 4.33"dome.  The Canon EF chart also has the 4.33"dome with no extension for the 10-17 and both applications have the same zoom gear.  This indicates that the 50mm extension puts you in a place where you apply the Canon port charts as per the m43 and Sony N100 port charts and the respective recommended port adapters.

This seems to indicate you would use the 50mm N85--N120 extension recommended for the Tokina plus Metabones and 4.33"dome on Sony E-mount plus a 30mm extension ring.  and you should be able to use the Canon zoom gear.  You would of course need to confirm this works without vignetting which can be done in the shop. 

You would need to buy the port with removable shade if you wanted to use the 8mm end at any time on full frame.  The dome, lens, 30mm extension and gear would all migrate to full frame and you would only replace the adapter.

15 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

If you have a Nauticam housing, the dome of choice would seem to be the140mm dome, You would need to work out how much extension was required to use with your current housing, but it would migrate directly over to a Sony full frame using the dedicated N100-N120 adapter for Canon lenses.   You would only change the adapter/extension.

If you look at the port charts the Tokina 10-17 on e-mount needs the 50mm N85-N120 adapter and the 4.33"dome.  The Canon EF chart also has the 4.33"dome with no extension for the 10-17 and both applications have the same zoom gear.  This indicates that the 50mm extension puts you in a place where you apply the Canon port charts as per the m43 and Sony N100 port charts and the respective recommended port adapters.

This seems to indicate you would use the 50mm N85--N120 extension recommended for the Tokina plus Metabones and 4.33"dome on Sony E-mount plus a 30mm extension ring.  and you should be able to use the Canon zoom gear.  You would of course need to confirm this works without vignetting which can be done in the shop. 

You would need to buy the port with removable shade if you wanted to use the 8mm end at any time on full frame.  The dome, lens, 30mm extension and gear would all migrate to full frame and you would only replace the adapter.

Thanks, Chris.

The Backscatter port finder has a few different options, but when using the N120 140mm dome port with the Sony FF N100 port, it says to use the 35.5mm N100-N120 adaptor and the 30mm extension ring which would total 65.5mm.

I've sent an email off to Nauticam via the website form to see if they have a recommendation.

Interestingly enough, when I was browsing through their website, I found a N85 dome specific to the Canon 8-15 FE lens:

https://www.nauticam.com/collections/n85-ports/products/4-33-dome-port-for-canon-ef-eos-m-adaptor-and-ef-8-15mm-f-4l-fisheye-usm

It is obviously designed for the Canon APS-C which is also uses a N85 port and I would have to account for the depth of the Metabones or Sigma converter, but that might just require putting a simple extension ring in and then using that dome. 

If I hear back from Nauticam on a specific recommendation, I'll post it here.

- brett

6 hours ago, TmxDiver said:

Thanks, Chris.

The Backscatter port finder has a few different options, but when using the N120 140mm dome port with the Sony FF N100 port, it says to use the 35.5mm N100-N120 adaptor and the 30mm extension ring which would total 65.5mm.

I've sent an email off to Nauticam via the website form to see if they have a recommendation.

Interestingly enough, when I was browsing through their website, I found a N85 dome specific to the Canon 8-15 FE lens:

https://www.nauticam.com/collections/n85-ports/products/4-33-dome-port-for-canon-ef-eos-m-adaptor-and-ef-8-15mm-f-4l-fisheye-usm

It is obviously designed for the Canon APS-C which is also uses a N85 port and I would have to account for the depth of the Metabones or Sigma converter, but that might just require putting a simple extension ring in and then using that dome. 

If I hear back from Nauticam on a specific recommendation, I'll post it here.

- brett

Another issue you need to deal with is the ID of the the N85 port and getting the lens and zoom gear through the hole.  The 8-15 is a large diameter lens (88mm dia) as I recall and won't fit through the N85 port and so the zoom gear can't reach the gear in the housing and you need to use the knob on the extension/adapter.  That's positioned in the same spot that an SLR housing would place the drive gear relative to the lens so it can be used with any Canon gear. 

The Canon port you link is for their APS-C mirrorless models and might not suit your housing as the flange distances might be different. 

I heard back from Nauticam but was diving all day yesterday.

The said it will definitely work with the Sony a6xxx series and the Canon 8-15 FE. 

They recommend:

36207 N815 to N120 Adaptor + 19537 Zoom Gear + 21130 30mm Extension Ring + 18811 140mm Glass Dome

Alternatively, the 18811 140mm dome could be swapped with either the 18802 8.5" acrylic dome or the 18812 230mm Glass Dome.

I know it isn't as good as a solution as using the larger domes, but if I do decide to go this route I'll probably go with the 140mm dome given my propensity to travel.

- brett

For the fisheye the penalty for the smaller dome is much less than with rectilinear.   Good to see my logic on the port charts was working!

For sure

9 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

For the fisheye the penalty for the smaller dome is much less than with rectilinear.   Good to see my logic on the port charts was working!

 

For sure. Thanks, Chris. 

If I end up going that route, I'll post some pictures and let people know how it works out.

- brett