rethinking the canon pro1

Hey all.

Don't know if you've noticed, but canon released new firmware for the pro1, which cuts the focus time in half, speeds up and smooths out the zoom, and stops the LCD freeze, during focus.

Now we're talking a 28-200 f2.4-3.4 L lens, 8 meg good picture quality.

Anyone used one underwater yet? I know Ike has had a housing for awhile, but it hasn't been updated with the E-TTL yet.

I'd love to go for the sony V3, with awesome focus system, but it's raw mode cycle time is about 14 seconds...

Any thoughts?

Don

New Canon G6 eTTL housing will not be available until spring, but Dave Haas just forwarded some test pictures shot the old fashioned way which are shown on following URL: http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/triv_haas_g6.html

Looks great Ike! Beautiful images.

But I'm still suspicious of the canon G series focus abilities, in anything less than bright light, with low contrast moving subjects...

Did Dave say anything about the focusing with the G6?

Now that the pro1 has the update, the 28mm wide, and now faster AF, looks like it would be even better, on paper.

How does the housing work the zoom ring? I was thinking one of your guys said there were some drawbacks with using the pro1 underwater. Does the auto focus hold up, with the distance sensor blocked?

Hopefully, the e-ttl would be plug and play... ?? Maybe not?

Don

Don,

Saw your question....The Canon G6 is my first mid-range camera in a long time and I had the same question on UW focus improvements. In Cayman Brac over Thanksgiving while also shooting more Digital Rebel eTTL I spent quite a bit of time shooting the G6. Here's some info. that may help you. (I'm not sure if you have a PRO 1 already or were thinking about one.)

The Canon G6 AF allows either a wide 9 point choice or a single point which you can move around with a 4 way controller (nice for off center compositions.) I am basically a lazy user of engineered features type of photographer...Meaning my manuals have multiple page corners folded then highlighted with the features I think will allow me to concentrate on composition letting the camera do the focusing, etc.

AF is definitely improved on the Canon G6. For anything but real tight macro I leave it on 9 point AF. Seems quicker especially in tropical light. Using a DS125 modeling light under ledges I could even get a focus lock on a moray deep in a hole. Moving fish are still a challenge, but less so if you're a good underwater "hunter" with a camera. Plus the housing zoom control is a lever right in front of the trigger. Easy to get to and fast.

Digital shooting teaches me something new every time I go against the "standard wisdom" we all cling to form the film days. Example: The widest Canon G6 35mm setting behind a flat port should approximately equal a 45-50mm lens angle. Yet I got some diver photos from 4'-5' away I'm very happy with! The Nurse shark pics WERE shot with a Sea and Sea .56X wide external lens. But I also forced myself to shoot with only the standard 35-140mm lens and I was pleasantly surprised by most of my results. So, I wouldn't sweat the lens angle on a camera of this type...Find subjects that fit the lens angle, get close and shoot!

I have to add I also knew the camera menus pretty well from shooting the G6 on the surface in Galapagos last month. Plus, I literally always have the camera out in my home to expand my photo collection of Los Gatos (the cats Too many UW shooters simply don't learn their camera menus and features....Then when that great opportunity comes along mistakes are made

So practice, practice, practice!

I think the Canon G6 is a great 7.1 mega-pixel choice for surface and underwater shooting if you don't want a dSLR.

Regards,

David Haas

davidhaas@sbcglobal.net

Hi Dave.

Thanks for the great report. I've been about the only one around here arguing that the p&s digi will eventually be better than a dslr, for underwater. Once the AF gets good enough, and the image quality gets good enough, and the LCD displays get like video, the huge boon of small bulk/weight for travel, and that nice huge "sport finder" for composing, will finally win. Folks used to pay really big bucks to get a housed f5 with sports finder...

Having shot an n90s in ike housing, for most of the 90s, and a G2 in ike housing, since they came out, I definitely had a love hate relation with the G2. Great pictures, and easy color, shooting raw mode, but such hit or miss AF. I got plenty of great shots, but had too much frustration quotient mixed in.

Here's my delema at the moment. I thought the sony V3 was finally it. Image quality essentially indistinguishable from the G6, and killer AF. But the raw cycle time is about 14 seconds.... I hate to give up raw. Even the nikon 8400 has a raw cycle time of about 9 seconds, so canon still has this wrapped up.

Failing the V3, I'm wondering whether the G6, or the pro1 with the new firmware update, and it's hybrid sensor blocked, is better at low light moving object auto focus.

Check out my G2 shots, if you never have, at my pbase site below.

Thanks so much, for your report!

Don

Don,

Nice pics on your site, expecially the snorkeling with the Oceanic White tip!

I've perused Steve's Digicams and www.preview.com reviews on most of the mid-size cameras you mentioned. I almost bought a PRO 1 last year but noise at anything higher than ISO50 kinda' turned me off....I also have been spoiled by shooting dSLR cameras. First a Nikon D100 for a year, then lately a Canon Digital Rebel. Am still likely going to get a Canon EOS 20D after the first of the year

I agree that a camera as good as the current mid size models is all most UW photogs need. The Sony V3 definitely has faster AF, but I am a Compact Flash card guy and am not investing in multiple memory card choices, etc. The Canon G6 uses the same incredible battery as the Digital Rebel and EOS 20D. Other things that swayed me were Canon's VIVID color balance. I know it's a CCD and not the CMOS sensor that wooed me back to Canon dSLR after 13 years of shooting Nikon, but I simply prefer the sum of all features that Canon seems to bring out in many price and size choices.....

The Ikelite Canon G6 housing swims well being compact but not tiny. Being able to hook up a cord hard wired is nice, too. Going from a dSLR viewfinder to the big screen was fun last week, too! Since the LCD screens on most digicams show 100% I think you can get better framing with some type of subjects.

Check out the links below for more of my digital images. I'l have some new galleries up at the www.pbase.com/dhaas site in a week or so from Australia and Galapagos plus more Cayman Brac, so stop back often and share with your other dive buddies.

Email me directly, too if you have other questions.

David Haas

Haas Photography Inc.

4596 Greenlawn Drive

Stow OH 44224

330-678-0591 Phone/Fax

davidhaas@sbcglobal.net

Sample Image Galleries at:

http://www.pbase.com/dhaas

Ikelite equipment test images at:

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/triv_haas_ettl.html

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/triv_haasdrebel.html

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/triv_haas_g6.html

Great stuff David. Thanks.

You know, I agree on the high iso noise problem, with the pro1. But at ISO 50, it is actually lower noise than the g6. And I shoot essentially 100% of the time at ISO 50, underwater. Left over from velvia days...

Just FYI - sony finally gave up, and the f828 and now the V3 are dual media - CF or memory stick.

Don

Don,

Guess I missed the dual memory slots on the Sony V3 review! I should have known that about the Sony 828 as I sold a customer a housing system (I'm an Ikelite dealer) before he went on my Cayman Brac trip. He got some nice stuff with it including mid-size head/shoulder diver pics, fish portraits plus macro.

I agree on shooting at ISO 50 for low noise on either the G6 or PRO 1. If the new firmware update speeds up the AF on the PRO 1, then the longer lens especially for surface use might make it a good choice. In a housing the port length needs to accommodate this extended lens zoom range and sometimes nixes add on external wide lense use. Plus remember the widest setting optically on a particular camera is then lengthened by a flat port more common on housings these days.....28mm versus 35mm PRO 1 minimum versus G6 minimum ain't much difference to me

One other thing was the PRO 1 Sony sensor having a bit more noise, even amongst the crop of 8 mega-pixel cameras that came out around then. Especially versus the newest 7.1 mega-pixel models.....One other thing I'm seeing using these little marvels is even with a smaller CCD, wth 7.1 mewga-pixels you still have enough "crop" capability to maintain data for a sharp inkjet print or even editorial use.

Concerning RAW shooting....A confession I've never sold a photo use that started as a RAW file! All Fine / Large JPEG post processed with either Adobe Elements 2.0 and / or just starting with Photoshop CS. I know this subject has been discussed ad nauseum, yet I know UW shooters who shoot Fine / Large JPEG all the time. The slower processing and extra computer tweeking just hasn't seemed to be necessary for my uses.....I do strive to get good exposures, filling 1/2 - 2/3 of the frame with my main subject. As a result I have enough data in a file for good reproduction. I know some RAW zealots would examine a print at 1"-3" maybe noting some "imperfection", but most printers can't reproduce the nano-detail they wax on about. RAW shooters I know (and like their work) make a good point on using the slight dynamic range advantage for UW shooting where light is changing all the time. To that end I guess if you're content with slower write times, camera idling while the whale shark gives birth or baby dolphin nurses in front of you so be it Me, I shoot Fine/Large JPEG and keep pulling the trigger knowing one or more images will be killers I'll work on in my computer later. Tools out there like Noise Ninja and Pro JPEG seem to solve most of these problems for people routinely selling their work...

Anyway, good luck on your choices! I'd check out the Ikelite housing and any limititations for the PRO1 before committing to it versus the G6.

Regards,

David Haas

davidhaas@sbcglobal.net

Point and shoot cameras have less dynamic range than dSLR's do and JPG's can hold 7 stops. RAW may be theoretically less valuable for these cameras but I'm convinced it's still what you want to do and whether an image is sellable or not has little to do with whether it was shot in RAW. The simple facts are that (1) RAW files are as good as you can get out of a camera, (2) JPG's definitely are not, and (3) the camera's builtin software has no idea you're shooting underwater. It's processing is designed for land.

While RAW is simpy a choice for land shooting, it should definitely be used for UW shooting. My immediate friends have all resisted it because they didn't know how to run ACR. Now that they do they would never consider shooting JPG UW again. I'm convinced that everyone will feel the same way once they invest the time.

Ike, how about a dome port, for the pro1? Seems like the 28mm is wide enough to justify it...

How about e-ttl for the pro1?

Dave, the canon digis have always had very good raw cycle times. The G6 is about 2.5 seconds. Given shooting with a flash, this isn't going to slow you down by much...

Regarding raw - to me the big advantage is in tonality, as opposed to resolution or small detail imperfections, or anything like that. With raw, one can preserve the 12-14 bits of data that the camera reads out for each pixel, and then when you convert, you end up with a smooth histogram. If you use 8 bit jpg, once you do some color, contrast, levels adjustments, you are getting gaps in the histogram, which are wasted opportunities, and eventually end up in color banding, in the continuous areas.

Well, I guess I've got to see for myself, if the G6 AF is really up there, or if the V3 blows it away. Alas, the raw cycle time for the V3 is up around 11-12 seconds!

Most of the time, I wouldn't notice even that. But there are those times....

Don

Someone's selling a new Ike pro1 housing on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...3858482631&rd=1

...baby dolphin nurses in front of you so be it

That had nothing to do with RAW! Some numb-skull convinced you to "leave the camera behind... lets just have some fun with the dolphins instead."