AOI Q1 E-PL10 not syncing

My set-up consists of Olympus E-PL10 with Backscatter/AOI UH-EPL10R UW housing (including HSC-02 for hot shoe) and two AOI Q1 strobes.  I have been using this since October and from early on have encountered an intermittent problem in that the strobes do not sync well and fire on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th shutter press.  Both strobes, which are each connected separately by optical cable to the housing, fire in unison.  Once it is in certain firing pattern it will stay that way until I turn the strobes off and on again (re-syncing) and that sometimes fixes the problem.  The problem occurs less above water and more below and, apart from that difference, I can't narrow down any cause and the problem is encountered for different camera settings.  I can rule out (i) batteries - all new and fully charged, (ii) optical cables - brand new high quality, (iii) settings - as per Backscatter guidance for macro, (iv) silent shutter - off.  I attach a video showing the problem when I have one strobe attached.

My ask of the community is:

• has anyone else encountered this problem / know of a solution?
• can anyone please explain the AOI Q1 "self learning" synchronisation, which may help me debug my problem?

PS I note that my housing is a newer model that handles Olympus' RC strobes.  One consequence of this is that the shutter speed is capped at 1/200 rather than 1/250 as per Backscatter guidance.  This may be a distraction but I wonder whether the introduction of the "RC" capability has not been fully debugged - just a guess.

Are you in RC mode on the camera?  RC mode uses a series of pulses to communicate with the flash and if one of them is mis-read it is likely to confuse issues.  Self learning basically means that the camera watches the first flash it sees after turning on and counts how many pulses and only flashes on the last pulse and remembers this for all future flashes.  Some Cameras emit multiple pre-flashes and this is the way the flash can deal with this and only flash at the right time.

So if your camera is in RC mode and sending pulses and you flash is not it might count the RC pulses as pre-flashes and if this is variable it could explain the need to flash several times before it syncs.

One work around might be to put both camera and flash in manual.  Try it with and without RC mode enabled.  The thing to remember the camera knows nothing about the flash apart from seeing the light when it activates.  The trigger in the housing acts like a flash and the flash imitates what the trigger does.  If for example the flash is in TTL and the camera in RC mode it will get confused.

The other thing to consider is that for the pulses to be read correctly you need top quality optical cables.  I know you said they are high quality but don't rule them out as a cause when troubleshooting, they may have been damaged or other issues like not being cut square.  Which cables do you have?

Hi Chris,

Many thanks for your response.

I am not in RC mode - and I have checked this.  Early on, I noticed that I had purchased an RC compatible housing (the UH-EPL10R with HSC-02 hot shoe) so I was curious to know what this all meant.

On "self-learning" ... I'll summarise to see if I understood you well - please correct me where I go wrong:  The housing sends light pulses (through the optical fibres) to the strobes and monitors the flash when it is fired.  It remembers the time (number of pulses) between sending the "flash" signal" and detecting the flash and this is used to time when the aperture opens.  We refer to this as the camera+housing "synchronising" with the strobe.  If this is correct then it is consistent with it not being possible to sync when I have a single strobe with snoot or if I cover the strobe, and syncing being less likely underwater (with strobes pointed somewhat randomly) and more likely on the bench before getting on the boat.  Knowing this will already help me design experiments to test different things.

The AOI Q1 strobes are not TTL so are just looking for a "go" signal as far as I can tell.

After encountering the problem initially I have purchased new cables: Sea&Sea with 613 fibres (cores).

Looking ahead I am considering:

• testing using a lower shutter speed (than 1/200) when attempting to sync and, more generally, experimenting more systematically to determine the conditions under which sync does and does not work
• testing better strobe batteries (right now using 3000mAh suggested by strobe retailer but Backscatter are selling 3500mAh)
• testing HSC-01, the hot shoe connector without RC capability
• sending UW housing back to Backscatter for testing & service

And all the while enjoying the ride ... lol.

Grateful for any comments on the above.

I'm not sure I follow what you said re self learning.  What it basically does when the flash is first turned on and fired it counts the number of pulses it sees.  After that it always fires on the last pulse.  So if it sees two pulses it fires on the sceond.  It does this as some cameras use more than one pre-flash pulse.  

If the AOI flash is manual only, can you set the camera to manual flash?  That would be the most straight forward solution as there is no counting just flashing whenever it sees a flash.  The non RC hotshoe may ensure this automatically.

I can see that I did not understand re self learning.  I think I get it now.  Thanks

When the camera is connected to the housing via the hot shoe, and the housing is switched on, the camera is automatically in flash mode.

For the moment I am running a series of controlled experiments to see if I can replicate the problem reliably.  For now it's intermittent.

FYI problem resolved

I now understand the following:

AOI Q1 strobes "self learn" by counting pulses received from the UW housing via the optical cable and wait for a specified period of no pulses before a time-out.  From experimenting I guess the period of no pulses is 1 - 2 seconds.  Only AOI technical documentation would reveal these exact specs I imagine (AOI have been unresponsive).  The Backscatter/AOI UW housing sends only a single pulse when the shutter is pressed.

If you first press the shutter once and wait a few seconds the strobes synchronise correctly.

If you first press the shutter two or three times within 1-2 seconds at start-up, and before the time-out, then the strobe will "learn" that it needs 2 or 3 pulses before firing.  And this is when the strobes don't appear to be synchronised and only fire ever 2nd or 3rd shutter press.

My experiments since have confirmed this.  So for correct syncing, press the shutter once and leave it for at least a few seconds before the next shutter press.  If you press the shutter a few times in quick succession the strobes are fooled.

Thanks goes to Sevag Mehterian, the Backscatter Service Manager for this insight.

Thanks for posting this! I have just acquired the same housing and strobes, and am now waiting for a few more things to arrive before testing the whole set up. I'll be doing mostly macro.

I'll check again on the Backscatter website for tips on the settings, but if you have any recommendations based on what works for you, it would be greatly appreciated. I am referring to flash settings on the camera (max/min sync speed), WB when using flash, but also ISO, etc. Anything you think worth mentioning.

No sweat.  The E-PL10 set up is great but it is taking me time to get accustomed to all of the manual settings after several years a TG user.  The Backscatter (BS) video on setting is spot-on ... https://www.backscatter.com/reviews/post/Olympus-PEN-E-PL10-Best-Underwater-Camera-Settings-Gear.  I've watched that dozens of times.  I follow their guidance closely so f22 & 1/200 for macro straight off the boat. 

This is something to note ... if you have recently purchased the kit then you likely have a HSC-02 hot shoe connector that is compatible with "RC mode" for strobes.  If you are using AOI Q1 strobes they are don't use RC mode so this feature does not apply.  BUT this hot shoe connector limits the shutter speed to 1/200, not 1/250 as explained in the BS video (in the video if you look very closely they are using the HSC-01 connector - and Robyn from BS confirms this).  When I've raised this with AOI they also confirm and suggest using HSC-01 if you think you really need 1/250 - I don't, I'm nowhere near appreciating such a fine difference.

A few other takeaways from my experience:

• I ended up investing in good butterfly clamps because of the fine strobe adjustments underwater needed for macro and that made a noticeable difference 
• I developed a pre-dive routine that put me in the best state of preparedness underwater, stuff like: batteries charged at the start of the day; optical cables checked; hot shoe connector firmly in place, o-ring clean (especially after macro shots with camera on sand); settings reset to what I need underwater as planned etc.
• I learned to accept all the things that go wrong, most of which owing to my lack of experience.  I actually developed a couple of funny tricks to work around the faulty sync problem.  I think I've learned as much from my mistakes as from the BS video (never use silent shutter for example - and that is an easy setting to change accidentally underwater).  It's also improved my ability to deal with stress underwater.  And it's ok if you leave the lens cap on - yes, I've done that too
• Strobe position (and use of snoot when shooting macro) is the key to my best shots.  I try all sorts of variations with two strobes, video light and dive buddy torch to see what's possible.  It's true what BS say, if you use their camera settings then you mainly need to dial-up or down the strobe intensity and adjust position (there is no sync speed to adjust). 
• I never adjust for WB when using the strobe.  I used to adjust my WB manually with the TG but not with too much success.  Now I use RAW and Lightroom I only adjust WB in post processing.  If I'm shooting wide and have a co-operative buddy I'll give them a white slate to dangle and occasionally snap a picture of them - I don't let on that I'm using them in this way of course 
• I like to dwell on a subject and will shoot maybe only 6 - 8 subjects in a 60 mins dive.  There are so many angles, variations of camera settings, strobe positions and lenses settings to try.  I also am in the habit of choosing an easy subject to get all of the kit working at the start of the dive.  This is especially important for strobe positioning with a snoot when shooting macro with a diopter.  So I've got some nice coral pics - lol
• I also use the AOI UMG-01 magnifier because my eyes are a bit dodgy these days.  That helps a lot.  And I'm still taking shots of what look like little dots on a piece of coral at the end of someone's pointer.  But I've learned to swap eyes so one doesn't get too stressed and that helps a bit.  I often get a big surprise when processing afterwards.  I use the UCL-09 on the 60mm macro lens and that shows up the best super freaky aliens
• I'm shooting RAW and using Lightroom for processing.  The Olympus free software is pretty good also and probably can do 80% of what I do in Lightroom.  I'm still on a learning curve there.

I've started to put my shots on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/deantravers69/) so you can see what the results are.  Still a long way to go of course.  Most of all I am having heaps of fun with the E-PL10 and don't resent any of the issues I've encountered.

Enjoy!

Super post, Dean. You've picked up some great lesson there. Happy photographing!

14 hours ago, DeanT said:

No sweat.  The E-PL10 set up is great but it is taking me time to get accustomed to all of the manual settings after several years a TG user.  The Backscatter (BS) video on setting is spot-on ... https://www.backscatter.com/reviews/post/Olympus-PEN-E-PL10-Best-Underwater-Camera-Settings-Gear.  I've watched that dozens of times.  I follow their guidance closely so f22 & 1/200 for macro straight off the boat. 

 

While you might be getting photos you like, I would suggest that f22 on this lens/camera combo is poor advice.  The 60mm macro and the small pixels on any micro 43 camera mean you are well and truly into diffraction at f22 and sharpness really suffers.  Sure there may be occasions particularly with close up diopters and around life size when you could use more depth of field, but for the most part f8-11 is adequate on the 60mm.  For the same scene and framing f8 on micro 43 gives the same depth of field as f16 on full frame so you don't need to stop micro 43 down as much.

You can see how dramatically sharpness drops off in this lens test:

https://www.opticallimits.com/m43/781-oly6028?start=1

Scroll down to MTF and you can see how much sharpness you are losing at f22.  I generally keep to f10 for my use with the EM-1 MkII.

Great.  This is taking my understanding to another level.  I will give this a try.  Thanks for the tip.

This is fantastic, @DeanT , thank you so much for sharing all those details, it's exactly what I hoping for. You got some nice shots in your instagram collection.

I should have mentioned, I have been taking underwater a Nikon D300 with 105mm lens inside an Ikelite housing for over 10 years. So I am accustomed to the humbling lessons (don't forget the lens cap!) and various accidents and mishaps that inevitably occur. But after a few years I had tuned in on the settings that worked, and now I was wondering about differences as I get started with this new rig.

The most notable difference is that my Nikon/Ikelite rig weighed about 30 lbs in the air (!), and was somewhat negative underwater. However, with that kind of anchor in your hands you don't have to worry too much blurred photos because the camera was moving in your hands. Usually 1/100 was perfect and even 1/60 was giving crisp results if the subject was not in motion. The Nikkor 105mm lens would go up to F36 I would usually stay in F22 or higher for tiny, stationary subjects that had "depth", but would lower it to F14 sometimes either to get some ambient light in the background or to be able to reach further with the strobes.

Generally aperture and strobe intensity were the settings I would fuss with during a dive, and keep shutter speed the same unless it really needed changing. Definitely don't want to be going through menus while underwater.

And @ChrisRoss thank you for pointer about that M.Zuiko 60mm lens, which is also a new piece of gear for me to get familiar with. I will now definitely experiment with lower F stops than I would have, and see how much of a perceivable effect ends up being in the result. This is definitely advanced level stuff and possibly not something an amateur like me needs to worry about, but isn't the fun also in trying things out?

Great post Dean T, here some thoughts on the Backscatter settings.

As I owned an Olympus E-PL7 before and in the beginning struggled with the settings I watched both Backscatter videos. Never to experienced to learn more. I like the attempt to simplify  things for new owners. It's a good starter (Chriss advice added), but remember they are somewhat restricted, specially for macro. After you master the basic settings of this advice it's time to experiment and fid out what you like best.

For instance following their macro advice all macro photo's will have more or less the same look, light subject and black background. Many are fond of this style but its nicer to have some variation in your photos. Experiment with less shutter speed in macro to get more interesting background colors (like they explain in the wide angle video). Or open your aperture more to get a blurry background that makes your subject stand out. Experimenting with shutter speed and aperture on an easy subject is probably the best way to learn.

The advise to set the image review to Off,to be able to shoot fast sounds logical. However take into account that your flash will not recycle fast enough to get well lit photos when you shoot fast. And you can always click the review away when speed is needed, so I do not see the point.  And personally I would not set the Live View Boost on for wide angele photography. Leaving the boost Off you can (more or less) judge if your background settings are correct before you shoot, instead of afterwards. You will have to change the background setting more often as suggested because of changing light at different depths.

As I said, just some thoughts from an Olympus shooter.

Thanks Floris. 

I have been experimenting on opening up the aperture as you and Chris suggest.  I haven't considered lowering the shutter speed and will keep that in mind.  And I fully agree that pieces of coral make very co-operative subjects, and frankly are too under rated.

Interesting comment on live boost for wide angle.  Something else to try.

Great advice!

On 1/24/2023 at 6:16 AM, DeanT said:

PS I note that my housing is a newer model that handles Olympus' RC strobes.  One consequence of this is that the shutter speed is capped at 1/200 rather than 1/250 as per Backscatter guidance.  This may be a distraction but I wonder whether the introduction of the "RC" capability has not been fully debugged - just a guess.

Was just perusing the forums today and wanted to clarify something here. The EPL10 camera max sync speed in non-RC mode is 1/200 with any recognizable connected flash--whether that be an Olympus topside speed light or a RC compatible flash trigger like the one in the housing. If the manual shoe (non-RC one with only the center pin installed) is connected the camera does not recognize that a flash is connected and the sync speed will be 1/250 in non-RC mode. This is why the manual shoe is available with the new USB-C connector for the RC compatible housings in case someone is not using a RC compatible strobe, or just wants to shoot the maximum sync speed when not using RC.

In RC mode the sync speed is reduced to 1/160 on the EPL10 when not shooting HSS. 

Hope this clarifies things on the sync speed!

Thanks Jim.  Yes, your explanation helps.  No-one could shed light on this at the time and it took me a while to figure out.  My understanding is that initial systems were shipped without RC strobes and the RC-01 (the non-RC hot shoe adaptor) that's why the BS video focused on 1/250.  Your explanation ties this all together.  Great!