Lenses for Blackwater diving

Following the blurb about the lack of macro lenses for the Sony E-Mount especially when it comes to black water diving I have looked into this myself.

Based on technical lens design the following lens will work well in blackwater

Canon EF-S35mm f/2.8 MACRO IS STM - ASPC DISCONTINUED

Nikkor AF-S Mirco Nikkor 60mm 2.8 EGD - Full Frame - DISCONTINUED

Nikon AF-S DX Micro Nikkor 40mm F2.8 - APSC

Nikon AF-S DX Micro 85mm 2.8 - APSC

Olympus 30mm f/3.5 macro - MFT

I do not have data for the Panasonic 30mm macro but I think it will work well too as I have the lens

You notice a few things

1. The focal length is short so those lenses have a wider field of view of other macro lenses

2. Most lenses are quite old. The Nikon are over 15 years old the MFT are at leat 7 years old

In conclusion most options are for APSC and MFT users. Only Nikon has a 60mm lens that is adequate on FX however the lenses are discontinued. Canon does not have a full frame lens with limited focus breathing

Looking at the RF line the 100mm is better than previous lenses however I am told there are other issues with it

What needs to happen for the E-Mount but also for other mirrorless system is to have lenses such as those above. As of today other than MFT the options don't exist in any mirrorless full frame mount

I would be interested to hear from users of the above. I have done a few checks and coincidentally I have found matching for all except MFT and I think the reason is that even if the lens does not breathe Olympus live view makes the shooting impossible

So right now blackwater should be a Nikon DSLR (Mostly APSC) and Canon APSC story keen to hear if my theory holds

Regarding blackwater and as someone who has experience BW diving with Sony A7R III/IV and A1 these are my thoughts. I live in an area that has excellent blackwater and have many friends that BW dive much more than I do some approaching 400 BW dives. Almost to a person those shooting APS-C are using 60mm macros (90mm equivalent) and FF users are using macros in the 90 to 105mm range. The only shorter lenses are those using M43 cameras with 30mm lenses for an shorted 60mm equivalent. I have never tried the 50mm for BW but I am sure the 90mm will way out perform. Most BW subjects are very small and very fast making them a challenge for auto focus. The first dive I made two years ago with my new Sony A1 was a BW dive to evaluate the AF after shooting most of my BW in the Philippines with the Sony A7R III/IV. The auto focus difference with the A1 was immediately noticeable the 90mm locked on and tracked like no other camera I have used. While I am sure FF users have used the 60mm the loins share prefer the 90-105 range. I would not be using a 60mm macro for Sony FF if they made one, you just have to get to close to your subject.

You 121 and others may perhaps want to read review Blackwater for Beginners issue #110 and Blackwater issue #121 both in the back issues of UWPMAG.com. Issue #121 was all shot within about a three mile of my home. 

Attached is a yet unidentified Tuna which is about 7cm in length. This is one of the fastest swimmers in the sea and A1 and 90mm locked on and tracked this fish as it made several passes toward the worms swimming near my lights.

Both images, Tuna & Comb Jellyfish, Sony A1 with 90mm macro, ISO-500, F/16, 1/400th sec. I have used Inon Z-240 and Z-330 strobes for BW but I have now started using the small Backscatter MF-line of strobes. They are ideal for BW because of the narrow beam and high power. I would also point out that the 1/400th shutter speed helps darken the water.

8 minutes ago, Phil Rudin said:

 

 

Regarding blackwater and as someone who has experience BW diving with Sony A7R III/IV and A1 these are my thoughts. I live in an area that has excellent blackwater and have many friends that BW dive much more than I do some approaching 400 BW dives. Almost to a person those shooting APS-C are using 60mm macros (90mm equivalent) and FF users are using macros in the 90 to 105mm range. The only shorter lenses are those using M43 cameras with 30mm lenses for an shorted 60mm equivalent. I have never tried the 50mm for BW but I am sure the 90mm will way out perform. Most BW subjects are very small and very fast making them a challenge for auto focus. The first dive I made two years ago with my new Sony A1 was a BW dive to evaluate the AF after shooting most of my BW in the Philippines with the Sony A7R III/IV. The auto focus difference with the A1 was immediately noticeable the 90mm locked on and tracked like no other camera I have used. While I am sure FF users have used the 60mm the loins share prefer the 90-105 range. I would not be using a 60mm macro for Sony FF if they made one, you just have to get to close to your subject.

You 121 and others may perhaps want to read review Blackwater for Beginners issue #110 and Blackwater issue #121 both in the back issues of UWPMAG.com. Issue #121 was all shot within about a three mile of my home. 

Attached is a yet unidentified Tuna which is about 7cm in length. This is one of the fastest swimmers in the sea and A1 and 90mm locked on and tracked this fish as it made several passes toward the worms swimming near my lights.

Both images, Tuna & Comb Jellyfish, Sony A1 with 90mm macro, ISO-500, F/16, 1/400th sec. I have used Inon Z-240 and Z-330 strobes for BW but I have now started using the small Backscatter MF-line of strobes. They are ideal for BW because of the narrow beam and high power. I would also point out that the 1/400th shutter speed helps darken the water.

 

I have read your review. The lenses I listed above have a design that will not change the field of view while the focus has been scanned

This will limit any hunting behaviours. To date there are not many lenses like those in mirrorless format except MFT

The Sony 50mm has also focus breathing and generally all Sony lenses that aim at being compact will have it

Now I am not into blackwater diving but I have the 90mm and it hunts in certain conditions. I reserve the right to make final comments when I have given it a proper run in water but based on what I see on land I can tell that the behaviour is there

Someone has made the comments that lenses for Sony are lacking and that is true however Z mount is worse and RF mount maybe better unclear.

The new lenses that are coming out on the market all aim at being small so focus breathing is a side effect coming with it

On 2/4/2023 at 12:58 PM, Phil Rudin said:

I live in an area that has excellent blackwater and have many friends that BW dive much more than I do some approaching 400 BW dives.

What Phil said here is true. This group of divers are probably some of the best blackwater UW photographers in the world. I have a Nikon Z camera and the Nikon AF-S 60mm with the FTZ was recommended. I found and excellent copy used for a very good price and I have been on a handful of blackwater dives with it so far. The AF speed is very fast and able to focus on the tiniest translucent critters. The dynamic range of Nikon Z camera is also really good with the challenging low light conditions. Overall, I am pleased with the results. I will be traveling back through South Florida in May and hope to do a few more blackwater dives with the crew at Pura Vida Divers.

5 hours ago, LarryHallas said:

What Phil said here is true. This group of divers are probably some of the best blackwater UW photographers in the world. I have a Nikon Z camera and the Nikon AF-S 60mm with the FTZ was recommended. I found and excellent copy used for a very good price and I have been on a handful of blackwater dives with it so far. The AF speed is very fast and able to focus on the tiniest translucent critters. The dynamic range of Nikon Z camera is also really good with the challenging low light conditions. Overall, I am pleased with the results. I will be traveling back through South Florida in May and hope to do a few more blackwater dives with the crew at Pura Vida Divers.

So Nikkor AF-S Mirco Nikkor 60mm 2.8 EGD - Full Frame - DISCONTINUED

which was on my list works. I think is the lens that is making the difference not the camera

I would like to hear from other users about the other lenses 

15 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

I think is the lens that is making the difference not the camera

I agree, but it’s a great lens for blackwater.

On 2/8/2023 at 12:26 AM, LarryHallas said:

What Phil said here is true. This group of divers are probably some of the best blackwater UW photographers in the world. I have a Nikon Z camera and the Nikon AF-S 60mm with the FTZ was recommended. I found and excellent copy used for a very good price and I have been on a handful of blackwater dives with it so far. The AF speed is very fast and able to focus on the tiniest translucent critters. The dynamic range of Nikon Z camera is also really good with the challenging low light conditions. Overall, I am pleased with the results. I will be traveling back through South Florida in May and hope to do a few more blackwater dives with the crew at Pura Vida Divers.

Are the DSLR lenses backwards compatible with the mirrorless camera bodies?

@Phil Rudin, I see you're near BHB. Are you doing your BW dives with PV? If not, who do you go out with most often? Doing a BW dive is on my bucket list, and I've been wanting to book one with PV for some time.

I used to shoot a Nikon D300 which is a crop sensor and understand that the 60mm is the lens to use with this camera.

I appreciate your post because I now have a Nikon D850 which is FF. Before reading your post, I thought I still needed to use the 60mm lens, but now I understand that I'd really want to use my 105mm. It makes sense (crop vs FF), and I would also benefit from the 850's faster focus, making the 105mm usable. The 105mm AF on the D300 was painfully slow.

16 minutes ago, mrchen911 said:

@Phil Rudin, I see you're near BHB. Are you doing your BW dives with PV? If not, who do you go out with most often? Doing a BW dive is on my bucket list, and I've been wanting to book one with PV for some time.

I used to shoot a Nikon D300 which is a crop sensor and understand that the 60mm is the lens to use with this camera.

I appreciate your post because I now have a Nikon D850 which is FF. Before reading your post, I thought I still needed to use the 60mm lens, but now I understand that I'd really want to use my 105mm. It makes sense (crop vs FF), and I would also benefit from the 850's faster focus, making the 105mm usable. The 105mm AF on the D300 was painfully slow.

I do use Pura Vida, great operation for both day or night diving, I can walk to the PV boat from my house. 

The D850 is a great BW camera with both 60 & 105 macros. My preference is for the longer lens. 

Don't be discouraged if you don't get much on the first dive, it is a learning process like another type of photography.

Just as a sidebar, I see you are looking for a 45 degree finder which is great for macro while horizontal over muck and so on. With BW you are much more often vertical and the 45 is difficult to use V a straight VF, in fact I would be leaving the 45 off for BW. 

3 minutes ago, Phil Rudin said:

I do use Pura Vida, great operation for both day or night diving, I can walk to the PV boat from my house. 

The D850 is a great BW camera with both 60 & 105 macros. My preference is for the longer lens. 

Don't be discouraged if you don't get much on the first dive, it is a learning process like another type of photography.

I appreciate your response. I've been trying to line up a BW dive with a dive buddy, and it just hasn't panned out. I tend to charter out of Jupiter more than WPB and make my way down to FE or PV mainly for BHB night diving. Where can I see more photos of yours?  

5 minutes ago, mrchen911 said:

I appreciate your response. I've been trying to line up a BW dive with a dive buddy, and it just hasn't panned out. I tend to charter out of Jupiter more than WPB and make my way down to FE or PV mainly for BHB night diving. Where can I see more photos of yours?  

I am Senior Reviewer for uwpmag.com where I have done over 100+ articles including two on blackwater. Go to back issues at the top of the page and enter Phil Rudin in the search engine. I am also on FB Phil Rudin and Insta philrudinphotography.