Salted Line / Sea Frogs with A6400 Zoom Gear Issue

Hello, I wonder if anyone using this combination has had problems with the Zoom Gear binding / jamming / skipping?

I am new to both the camera and housing after using the Meikon with a RX100 for many years (happily). I got the Sony body and Salted Line case last week - it came mis-configured for the 6400 but I sorted that all out (I am thinking I did). I watched the videos and believe I am following correct install protocol. When I first push down the A6400 body the Zoom Knob rotates well (although not every time**) Then I place the back housing on and it sits a mil or two above the 'seated position' that the clamshell sits compared to an empty housing - so I know that the closures are about to pressure the camera downward towards the front of the case. Sure enough when the clamps are shut down the Zoom gear is now jammed tight , or sometimes almost jammed - and in a turn or two start to skip / jump the internal gears. I also suspect that if there is too mush outward pressure on the case I could flood.

- The camera is totally as it arrives from the factory (with kit lens)

- I have fried with different front ports.

I sure would love someone telling me where I am messing up!

I think the zoom gears are rubber on the Seafrog housings. Try pushing it back(towards the body)a little more on the lens.

Concur with @tobyone - put the zoom gear on the lens, push the body into the housing, let it align the gear, then take it out, push the gear a little bit towards the body so that it won't bind against the plastic, then put the camera into the housing again. It's easy to get the gear skewed a little bit, and this will cause it to bind and skip, but with practice you'll find the exact spot where it works 100%.

Thanks for your thoughts!

OK, I will try that again, and see how it works. Any thoughts on the internal pressure? If that may cause flooding?

I did a video for the support at Sea Frogs but they need a day or two to respond - Time difference to HK. I was beginning to think I might grind down the Rubber LCD guard that applies pressure from the rear, on a belt sander. If I remove that part the housing works more or less, as it should but without it I think the Camera body will shift backward and I will be unable to turn on/off the power.

Update - Yes that fixes the issue - I press the gear back to the face of the closed lens and it is free to move when closed up. I suppose I will simply mount the gear before dropping in the camera. Thanks to you both again!

3 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

Concur with @tobyone - put the zoom gear on the lens, push the body into the housing, let it align the gear, then take it out, push the gear a little bit towards the body so that it won't bind against the plastic, then put the camera into the housing again. It's easy to get the gear skewed a little bit, and this will cause it to bind and skip, but with practice you'll find the exact spot where it works 100%.

Well, now I'm done in again. The proposal kindly given does work, but when and as I tried it, I needed to leave out the component as photo 1 shows - that little 'ear' at the top right inside the housing that seats between the front of the camera and the gear wheel. I can get the camera OUT by carefully angling the camera + gear around the 'ear' but getting it back in is a bugger, and invariably it knocks the gear out of true. Every time I try to load the kit while delicately trying to simultaneously seat the 'ear' end in failure.

Getting this working 100% with my skill set may be possible but I will surely miss the dive boat, or breakfast, or both!

I will continue to try gentle manipulation but I can not imagine that this delicate procedure so prone to dives with malfunctioning housings would be considered normal for Salted Line. I must still be doing something quite wrong. Sea Frogs now tells me they have never seen anything like the videos I sent them and they are now preparing an (Idiots) Guide to Installation. (my insertion). The support team appear quite friendly.

If the housing back does not sit right on the assembled housing front and camera, you risk a flood or other problems if you have to squeeze the back to get it closed I would think.  It sounds like the camera needs to move forward in the housing by a couple of mm.  Does it sit on a tray of any sort?  Are there any attachments like the lug ring I see in the photo that interfere with placing the camera in fully?

There is no tray in this housing; the camera is squeezed between rubber bumpers all all sides. It's a bit wobbly when the housing is open, but closing the back locks it tight. That part on the upper left - I suppose it's meant to give the camera some extra stability, but I tossed it ages ago, as it kept getting in the way, and I haven't had any issues operating the zoom without it. If you're testing the zoom while the housing is open, make sure to hold down the camera with your right hand - push it in and left - otherwise it will move a bit to the right and the zoom gear teeth will bind into one of the support posts. When the housing is closed, pressure from the housing back takes care of it.

4 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

There is no tray in this housing; the camera is squeezed between rubber bumpers all all sides. It's a bit wobbly when the housing is open, but closing the back locks it tight. That part on the upper left - I suppose it's meant to give the camera some extra stability, but I tossed it ages ago, as it kept getting in the way, and I haven't had any issues operating the zoom without it. If you're testing the zoom while the housing is open, make sure to hold down the camera with your right hand - push it in and left - otherwise it will move a bit to the right and the zoom gear teeth will bind into one of the support posts. When the housing is closed, pressure from the housing back takes care of it.

 

So how do you know it's seated well enough?  presumably the housing closes fine without the little ear?

1 hour ago, ChrisRoss said:

So how do you know it's seated well enough?  presumably the housing closes fine without the little ear?

As a rule, my pre-dive process is:

1. Mount the appropriate lens on the camera.
2. Insert memory card and charged battery into the camera, turn on, make sure the card is accessible and writable (sometimes the little write-protect tab slides into 'protected' mode), make sure the battery is 100% or close to that.
3. Mount zoom gear on the lens, if applicable (I have no focus gears for either of my macro lenses)
4. Open the housing, put the housing on/off switch into 'on' position
5. If necessary, mount the appropriate port
6. Turn on the camera, remove lens cap
7. Insert camera into the housing, check zoom gear alignment, fix as needed
8. Turn the camera off and on via housing switch to verify that it is aligned
9. Connect flash trigger hot shoe, verify that flash setting is set to 'WL'
10. Verify that o-ring is clean and well-seated, attach housing back, close but do not lock the latches
11. Verify again that zoom knob and on/off switch work
12. Turn on strobes
13. Remove port cover, take a shot, verify that both strobes have fired, replace port cover
14. Remove vacuum valve cap, turn valve on, attach pump, draw air until it flashes green, detach pump, turn valve off, replace cap
15. Lock the latches, turn camera off

This is done at least half an hour before a dive. Immediately before a dive, I turn the vacuum valve back on, verify that it's still green, turn it off, take another test shot of a wall to verify that strobes are firing and syncing, and then I'm good to splash down.

After getting into gear, I put the camera on my lap, attach the two bolt snaps I have mounted on upper arm joints to BCD shoulder D-rings and a coiled lanyard to my right waist D-ring - this allows hands-free carriage of the entire rig, whether I'm doing a giant stride off a big boat, or a backroll off a small one. On initial descent, I unclip the shoulder D-rings, release the coiled lanyard shortening snap, turn on the camera, remove and stow port cover, burp the wet lens if needed, unfold the strobe arms, attach the LCD hood (it inevitably falls off on splashdown) and adjust shutter speed/aperture/ISO to what seems appropriate given ambient light conditions. By the time I'm done with that, the bottom is coming up, and it's time to put air into BCD to establish neutral buoyancy, take a test shot of the bottom to establish strobe power, and then it's off to look for subjects.

I keep the vacuum valve (Leak Sentinel V5 XB) off during the dive because if I don't, it inevitably starts blinking red, and that's just distracting. I'm not 100% certain why it does this, but I suppose the housing compresses a little bit under pressure and it's enough to trip the Leak Sentinel pressure monitor. Pumping extra air out of the housing does not help - I'm guessing it monitors for an increase in pressure, not a specific pressure level. Regardless, I have a leak sensor inside to alert me if water does get in.

Edit: Forgot to mention, since you're using the kit 16-50mm, gear alignment is quite easy - it has to sit flush with the front of the lens when it's retracted. The toothed side of the gear needs to be facing the camera body.

1 hour ago, Barmaglot said:

I keep the vacuum valve (Leak Sentinel V5 XB) off during the dive because if I don't, it inevitably starts blinking red, and that's just distracting. I'm not 100% certain why it does this, but I suppose the housing compresses a little bit under pressure and it's enough to trip the Leak Sentinel pressure monitor. Pumping extra air out of the housing does not help - I'm guessing it monitors for an increase in pressure, not a specific pressure level. Regardless, I have a leak sensor inside to alert me if water does get in.

I get this too with the V5 XB and understand its temperature variation between topside and depth. I usually set my system up the night before and leave the valve switched on for a couple of hours. If all's green after that I turn it off but re-check in the morning.

Leak Sentinel recommend an extra 2-3 pumps (3-4?) once the valve shows green/green flashing to solve the green/red issue. As Barmaglot reports, even with this a green/red sequence underwater is not unusual - which then disappears on surfacing. But that green/red blinking underwater is not good for mental health nor heart. In recent weeks I have found that 5-6 pumps extra after green/green seems to cure this issue. 

I know Miso is working on V6 XB and plans to resolve this issue. Fingers crossed.

8 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

...It sounds like the camera needs to move forward in the housing by a couple of mm...

Yes, I would feel so. It is an interesting dilemma - I admire a housing manufacturer who assembles a package for multiple bodies and so I suppose I must be prepared to fiddle. The housing is held back /seated on 3 rubber 'beads' and a two corner pads - all about 6mm deep. If I had spares i would reduce the thickness to 4mm. I have tried replacing them with some firm sponge and -on a preliminary test - the closure fit is now 'correct' the zoom gear is fitting and smooth and all controls work well or better than before. If I had soft filament, and experience with using it, I would 3D print some replacements.

8 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

...I tossed it ages ago, as it kept getting in the way, and I haven't had any issues operating the zoom without it...

OK! That will fix that! Thanks for letting me know it work without!  The part has a lower flange which seems to be designed to act as a position 'retainer' for the Zoom gear - but in actual use this is the offending part that pushes down on, and binds, the gear after closing the back (in my experience). I might have re-designed and print the part with more lower tolerance but if you don't need it... good riddance to it!

..."put the housing on/off switch into 'on' position " - Interesting, inserting 'On' makes more sense looking at the switch insertion point but Sea Frogs instructs 'Off'

..."close but do not lock the latches " - ? Why not lock the latches at this point?

So I just got a video arrive from Sea Frogs, I will watch it now - they tell me if it doesn't help to send the housing out to British Columbia for review. That's not happening (before my trip)! Thank goodness for the help here - I should be fixed up good. Thanks everyone for the help! Next to try this Vacuum Pump thingy - the fun never ends!

1 hour ago, TimG said:

Leak Sentinel recommend an extra 2-3 pumps (3-4?) once the valve shows green/green flashing to solve the green/red issue. As Barmaglot reports, even with this a green/red sequence underwater is not unusual - which then disappears on surfacing. But that green/red blinking underwater is not good for mental health nor heart. In recent weeks I have found that 5-6 pumps extra after green/green seems to cure this issue.  

I tried pumping dozens of times, and it still went red during a dive, so I just gave up and started turning it off as a last pre-dive step. It stands to reason that my plastic SeaFrogs housing would flex more than your metal Subal one, which would account for the discrepancy. FWIW, getting the V5 XB green on a SeaFrogs A6xxx housing with short macro port takes ~12 movements of the pump.

3 minutes ago, polyroly said:

..."put the housing on/off switch into 'on' position " - Interesting, inserting 'On' makes more sense looking at the switch insertion point but Sea Frogs instructs 'Off'

In my experience, if I try to insert the camera with the switches in 'off' position, they don't engage.

4 minutes ago, polyroly said:

..."close but do not lock the latches " - ? Why not lock the latches at this point?

They're small and stiff, and unlocking them while tray handles are in the way is annoying, so I only lock them when I'm 100% sure that I won't need to unlock them until the dive is over. To be honest, I've splashed down more than once with them still unlocked, but it doesn't really matter with vacuum in the housing - there is no way to separate the front and back even with latches totally open.

6 minutes ago, polyroly said:

Next to try this Vacuum Pump thingy - the fun never ends!

Be careful, the SeaFrogs VPS-100 leaks underwater - not initially, but I've gone through three of them, and they all started failing around 70-80 dives. SeaFrogs strongly recommends removing that valve before a dive, but this defeats the purpose of having a vacuum system to a significant extent. If you want a vacuum system (strongly recommended!), get a Leak Sentinel - they have a version that fits SeaFrogs threading, and while it is not advertised anywhere online, if you write Miso an email, he'll hook you up. It costs 230 euros for the valve, and another 25 for manual pump.

8 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

Be careful, the SeaFrogs VPS-100 leaks underwater - not initially, but I've gone through three of them, and they all started failing around 70-80 dives. SeaFrogs strongly recommends removing that valve before a dive, but this defeats the purpose of having a vacuum system to a significant extent. If you want a vacuum system (strongly recommended!), get a Leak Sentinel - they have a version that fits SeaFrogs threading, and while it is not advertised anywhere online, if you write Miso an email, he'll hook you up. It costs 230 euros for the valve, and another 25 for manual pump.

Yes, having a vacuum on when diving is vital IMO, housings are actually most prone to leaking at the surface and pulling a vacuum pre-loads all the o-rings and for example means the back won't come off even if you try.  Plus all the controls have their o-rings pre-loaded.  Releasing the vacuum is just a kludge for a poorly designed vacuum valve.  Get a system that you can keep the vacuum on UW.

Interesting how systems vary - My Nauticam housing I pump down 3 times post green and I don't have the option to turn it off - BUT - it stays green the whole time no matter depth/water temperature etc.  That green light is quite re-assuring while on a dive.

So thanks again to all help, I am reliably able to load and unload the camera body while maintaining good gear contact. I Could deal with a fixed focal length but I really want to keep the option of manual focus - so I am feeling much better with the housing now. I quickly printed up some offset rings that fit on the lens front so I can reliably and repeatably set the gear forward of the lens face by 3mm. Only takes a couple of minutes to print and its one less thing to use my brain for early in the morning. (pretty dopey STL file free for the asking, anyone living in Toronto without a printer can pick up a set at no charge)

As for the vacuum - not sure I will be able to act on this before my trip but I will follow up. I am not entirely sure about putting a case that is meant for 140ft depth under additional load. If you are under vacuum at surface do you know what apparent depth you will be at 140 feet? I think as a guess, I would stay over 100 ft just for peace of mind.

2 hours ago, polyroly said:

So thanks again to all help, I am reliably able to load and unload the camera body while maintaining good gear contact. I Could deal with a fixed focal length but I really want to keep the option of manual focus - so I am feeling much better with the housing now. I quickly printed up some offset rings that fit on the lens front so I can reliably and repeatably set the gear forward of the lens face by 3mm. Only takes a couple of minutes to print and its one less thing to use my brain for early in the morning. (pretty dopey STL file free for the asking, anyone living in Toronto without a printer can pick up a set at no charge)

 

As for the vacuum - not sure I will be able to act on this before my trip but I will follow up. I am not entirely sure about putting a case that is meant for 140ft depth under additional load. If you are under vacuum at surface do you know what apparent depth you will be at 140 feet? I think as a guess, I would stay over 100 ft just for peace of mind.

Vacuum is equivalent to about 2m depth - I wouldn't worry about it - it's not like the case works at 40m and instantly collapses at 41m.  The vacuum system is the single best thing you can do to protect your camera.