Raw and JPG Storage

Ok to elaborate on my title etc ..

I recently started shootign RAW as I now have that facility .. I am still not convinced but will be continuing to try it out .. and then will try out shooting jpg again see how my result are then ... HOWEVER

I am very thorough in deleting any RAW images i do not want to keep, I don't need then so why keep them. The winners get converted to JPG. Assuming jpg's are now how i want to keep them .. I have them all saved in the same folder.

I am worried of making a mistake and deleting the wrong RAW file .. which leaves me with just a JPG .. can you link them ? make this impossible ?

It's just confusing to me to have 2 files which are essentially the same in Dif formats .. now i know many of you .. ahem .. i need not mention names, take geekyness to another level I can only dream of, and save in like 3 or 4 dif formats. HOW THE HELL do you keep track of them all and keep them related shall we say?

I am undergoing the massive task of ITPC'ing my JPG's and Databasing my RAW files using ACDSee (my favourite but thats not up for discussion here) I use Adobe PS2 and Bridge to deal with the Raw files.

I just want to make sure I keep all the RAW files 'related to their offspring'

any advice ?

Micro$oft Windows conceals the file extensions, but they are still there. That means Windows is quite happy to keep files with the same name but different format together in the same folder - distinguishing them via the (invisible) file extensions, which you can (still see if you do a directory listing from a c:/ prompt). You also can easiliy see the extension and file type when you view the files in Adobe Bridge. Provided you sort on filename, the raw files and the other versions will appear listed next to each other.

For instance, one folder might include the following versions of the same image:

_DSC1077.NEF (the original raw image)

_DSC1077.JPG (a JPEG version of the image)

_DSC1077.TIF (a TIFF version of the image)

_DSC1077.PSD (a photoshop working file version)

All would appear to have the same name - _DSC1077 - in a directory listing, but the full filenames are different.

In practice, I shoot RAW + JPEG, generating a NEF file and a JPEG file for every image. When I edit/delete, obviously I delete both the NEF and JPEG versions. After processing a raw file, I generally save the modified image file as a TIFF file, and then reduce the size of the file and generate an additional JPEG in a separate folder. I delete the original JPEG in the camera. To make the nature of the files absolutely clear, I also use affixes on processed files saved as TIFFs (_0 for converted but not processed, _1 for basic processing in Photoshop, _2 for Photoshop Processing plus NEAT IMAGE noise reduction, and _3 for any other special processing. I store processed TIF files with the RAW files, so part of a working file idrectory might look like this:

_DSC1079.JPG - original JPEG from camera

_DSC1079.NEF - original NEF from camera

_DSC1080.JPG - original JPEG from camera

_DSC1081.NEF - original NEF from camera

_DSC1082.NEF - original NEF from camera (_DSC1082.JPG has been deleted)

_DSC1082_1.TIF

Micro$oft Windows conceals the file extensions, but they are still there.  That means Windows is quite happy to keep files with the same name  but different format together in the same folder - distinguishing them via the  (invisible) file extensions, which you can (still see if you do a directory listing from a c:/ prompt). ...

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There's a windoz folder option that sets the default to display the file extension.

From Windows Explore: Tools -> Folder Options, click the view tab and uncheck the box "Hide extensions for known file types". I always set my windows machines this way. The down side is you will have to retain the correct extension when you change file names.

With Apples Aperture you don't separate the RAW conversion and the editing of images. You always work directly on the RAW file.

Even with iPhoto this is (almost) how it's done. You import the RAW file to iPhoto, and the first set of edits you make work on the RAW file. The following are made on the current jpg. If you do "revert to original" you get the original RAW file back.

Is there no tool for Windows that work like this?

With Apples Aperture you don't separate the RAW conversion and the editing of images. You always work directly on the RAW file.

 

Even with iPhoto this is (almost) how it's done. You import the RAW file to iPhoto, and the first set of edits you make work on the RAW file. The following are made on the current jpg. If you do "revert to original" you get the original RAW file back.

 

Is there no tool for Windows that work like this?

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I think the distinction of "original RAW" file vs plane old RAW file is just Apple marketing hype.

I don't think any RAW work flow writes over the raw data. I don't think it's even possible to change the RAW file in any way in C1, adjustments are kept in a separate file. Canon DPP will let you rewrite the raw file with your adjustments saved, but all the original info is still there and you can always revert.

If you can make all you adjustments in C1 then you are always operating on the RAW file. It's about 90% true for me. I do the final sharpening in photoshop and sometimes cloning away a little backscatter.

I don't think any RAW work flow writes over the raw data.

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Actually, that is not strictly true. Maybe it is in C1, but in Nikon Capture you can actually save a new set of WB, colour space etc., directly into the NEF - no sidecar.

Apparently my original question was not clear enough.

I know all about how files look in windows .. and that they can be stored in the same folder with the same name and same file extension.

I will use an example to help this out.

Last night I was going through a folder of RAW Images .. I had 71. I picked maybe 8 that I wanted converted as the rest didn't cut it for various reasons. So now I have a folder with 71 RAW and 8 JPG.

Next I deleted all the other RAW files .. but by READING each file name I made sure I kept the original RAW files of the ones I had converted. I dont want to deal with TIFF's if I need them I will make them from the original RAW file.

This seems like a long way round to clean up a folder full of RAW files I don't need. but I can't see another way around it. If I was to do 4 dives a day shooting RAW this would keep me busy for a good full Night.

So the main question is .. is there a way to make the files link together and act like they are related so that it is easier to delete files I don't need anymore.

(sorry I had trouble again describing the issue I am having without seeming pathetic and allergic to work)

Ahh... I think I understand. I do the same thing with a nurdy solution that you probably don't want to adapt.

I wrote a script in cygwin (linux on windows) to list a TIFF file dirctory, make a list of the names without the .tif extension, and use that list to move the named raw files to another directory. I did it this way because I couldn't think of a simple way to do that in a windows app.

maybe this is the biggest problem with photo management app's .... hopefully some one will come up with a solution ... just incase anyone hadnt guessed this is really pissing me off and may well stop me from shooting RAW as my photos are good enough without RAW and i dont need to have multiple formats of the same image.

Eric I know you are king of these things ... so when i am with you in south africa ... ignore me looking over your shoulder i will probably have given up on work flow by then.

Get a Mac!

You get iPhoto for free, and that solves your ptoblem. ;-)

After you've imported your images (files) to the iPhoto library you no longer see "files" - only images. As soon as you start working on an image iPhoto maintains two versions of it - the current and the original. You import the RAW files directly. Whatever editing you do; you can always revert to the original (the RAW file). If you delete an image all versions/copies of it are deleted.

Is there really no Windows tool using the same concept? (An image management tool that works with images instead of files.)

I know this is going to sound a little stupid, but you can actually delete images directly from Adobe Bridge.

So once you've converted the pictures you want to keep to JPEG format (by the way, TIFF would be a better choice, but this is a different story altogether), you can see in Bridge the thumbnails that appear twice (once for the RAW file and once for the JPEG file), and simply delete the others (those that appear only once, and therefore have not been converted to JPEG).

Cheers,

Mat

It may be stupid, but it's what I do - delete files directly from Bridge. (Bridge makes this easy by making YES the default choice in the delete file dialogue, so having marked a file (or files), you can dump them quickly by hitting the DEL key and RET.

Frogfish

I just keep all my raw's.

Perhaps if I shout more this wouldn't be practical, but I usually shoot 1gig / dive day, with an occasional 2gig day. Hard drives are relatively cheap. A 200Gig drive will last me about 150 Dive days. So I spend ~$1 per day on storage. When you consider the money I spend on day diving, $50-$200 the $1 save my files is negligible.

well I have no need to keep a RAW file that i will never use or want to see if it is bad composition or out of focus etc ... this is why I wish I had had a chance to see someone give a workflow talk .. maybe I will read up on it see how its meant to be done.

Giles,

I understand what you are saying about having files (in this case a RAW and a JPG) linked to each other, but aside from creating some custom script (possible even within Bridge/Photoshop), I think a small change in your RAW workflow might be the easiest solution.

I don't know what program you might be using to process your RAW files, but just about every one that I've seen has a flagging feature in it. Canon's DPP uses check marks (1-3). Adobe Bridge has color tags you can assign. When I am ready to process my RAW files I will quickly browse the photos and flag each individual image with a check mark in DPP (Checkmark #1 = KEEP FILE; Checkmark #2 = DELETE FILE; you can use different colors if you use Bridge). Once I'm done going through my RAW files there is a feature that allows me to select a specific group of images based on the tag I've selected (usually in the EDIT menu). In this case I choose all the images tagged with Checkmark #2 and delete the images. With all the RAW processing complete I simply run a batch process to convert the RAW files to JPGs.

--- UNNECCESSARY READING WITH REGARDS TO IPTC IMPLEMENTATION BELOW ---

I am not aware of ACDSEE's IPTC implementation and whether or not you can apply them to RAW files, but for me it is usually after I've created the JPGs that I assign the IPTC data to the JPGs in Adobe Bridge (I personally like Bridge for IPTC data input, although far from perfect, because of its XML keyword output and its simple keyword storage & assignment). Unfortunately, Canon RAW files don't allow for IPTC data to be embedded so you're stuck with a sidecar file (a separate file containing the information) if you assign the info to the RAW file in Bridge. Assigning it to the JPG embeds it into the image itself, which for me works with my web site to automate the categorization process (a whole other story!). Ultimately, all this crazy IPTC implementation serves one purpose -- to help you find that one image of a Pederson Shrimp dancing the Chacha on the pearly whites of a Hammerhead in your 5 million images of sharks.

There was an article on workflow in the latest issue of UwP.

I still think you should be looking for a tool that lets you manage images instead of files.

Jumping in a month late here but here's my 2 cents.

In the origional post I'm assuming you meant PS CS2 but typed PS2. I started working with raw over 2 years ago when most were using the conversion software that came with the camera (Oly for me). Quite a few members here are still using PS E2 which does not convert raw. I am glad I kept most of my raw files because CS2 converts with much more adjustment than the Oly software. I did delete the out of focus and totally missed shots but I kept a lot of shots that I could not make look good with Oly / PE2. Now with CS2's raw conversion many of those shots are real keepers. What advances will be made in the next 2 years?

With regard to secondary files, in CS2 saving a psd file would seem natural, although I still work in tiff. For me, each dive is a folder, with many folders inside. depending on my success that dive there could be raw, tiff, 500x (web), 4x6, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14 (web & print files jpeg). The reason to save a tiff (or psd) is to make a 13x19 later without having to start over with the raw file. If your working file is jpeg you are compounding the compression when you resize/resample and not ending up with as good a final image. Also some images take a long time to get right, with psd or tiff you can work on it at your leisure.

I do not batch convert, as not all images need the same tweaking IMHO. As I see that images do not cut the mustard I delete. In the end there are raw and tiff files of all the keepers. The web and print folders have the real gems. Down the road some of the almosts may benifit from newer processing techniques and become gems also. Hard drives are cheap. I'm sure that qualifies as geeky to Giles but it is also an answer to his questions.