HD or 3CCD

Dan, I understand why you would take what I said as not being well informed.

My statement is based upon my verbal discussions with someone who has done extensive tesing of HD cameras with both halogens and HID lights. I would not make a presumption based upon speculation. The source who I will not mention outright has sent a full test report to me for review and all I can say is that this individual has been around quite awhile and done his fair share of work underwater.

I'm not going to debate the issue of shooting SD -vs- HD. Those who shoot it have their reasons to shoot it. I am sure that down converted SD from HD looks very good - since I do not have an HD camera yet, I can only takes others word for it. But this is just a piece of technology - just as SD is. I've seen world class images taken with little more than a simple camera - and I believe the same can be said for video. Use what you have and eek out all you can from it. Is HD the future - that's a given.

There is a sense of elitism that is apparent here in this part of the forums. Some of us don't have thousands of dollars to spend on HD gear and the associated added costs to work with it (computer upgrades, monitors, etc). Just because one still shoots SD does not make them any less professional than someone who shoots HD.

To make a statement that one is limiting themselves is a subjective one - I have spoken with other VERY talented underwater shooters who are still shooting SD for their day in and day out work and will hire out HD if the project warrents it or the client will allow it to be worked in to the budget.

I may not be the most informed on the topic of HD, but what I have learned so far, HD is still evolving and will continue to. But until I can afford HD, I will be quite content with the SD gear I will soon have and be secure in what I learn - and make money in the process.

This discussion is reminiscent of the impassioned arguments against digital stills about 5 years ago.  HD is poised to do to SD what digi did to film.  It's not a question of if, but when. 

 

I agree with videodan that HD, at 4 times the resolution, blows away anything shot in SD.  Looks like a movie by comparison. 

 

As for low light, my HC1 is the little cousin of the FX1, with one cmos chip instead of three ccd's.  Low light capability is acceptable (got nice footage of a moray in a hole without lights) and with a good set of lights...wow!

 

It's the same tech merry-go-round as computers and digicams.  Everybody has to make their own decisions when to upgrade, but the longer one waits, the harder it will be to sell the old gear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eric - I agree whole heartedly with what you said in your post. It is a trade off it seems right now - there are those early adopters who will have the initial leg up so to speak on others who have held out, but it seems that some of us have wait due to sheer necessity.

I would rather not, but hey - one can only do what one can only do...

I think the latter 1/2 of this year will se some exciting new products released that will allow some of us mere mortals to jump into the HD fray and not look back...

Now if I could only convince L&M to convert my Bluefin 950 housing to fit the HC1...

I mean, you have to dump your standard halogen lights for HID just to shoot HD?

Use what you have and eek out all you can from it

There is a sense of elitism that is apparent here in this part of the forums. Some of us don't have thousands of dollars to spend on HD gear and the associated added costs to work with it (computer upgrades, monitors, etc). Just because one still shoots SD does not make them any less professional than someone who shoots HD.

 

To make a statement that one is limiting themselves is a subjective one - I have spoken with other VERY talented underwater shooters who are still shooting SD for their day in and day out work and will hire out HD if the project warrents it or the client will allow it to be worked in to the budget.

"Elitism" I'm a HDV owner and believe me I would'nt dream of thinking myself above any of you low class SD scum

I also have seen magnificent footage on SD and realise HDV is still in its Infancy. But one day we will all have to convert as technology progresses and then all you fools will feel the power of my superior HDV CAM, HA HA HAAAAA

Get what you can afford, there will always be something better around the corner..

I have been HDV for three weeks and still have no housing Going to check out the Gates gear later today. Then hiring the Amphibico next week. Then I will decide.

Dive safe

Dean (lets not fall out over formats) B

Hmm, i don't see any elitism here. THere are a few of us here with HD and lots of discussion and people talking about it but very few who would say "GO WITH HD OR YOU ARE NOTHING!" The most active posters here definitely do not have that attitude and we are all helping each other out learning the new technology and seeing what works and how. I think this is a great place for info and ideas.

But, there are def kinks still being worked out with the HD stuff. As i mentioned to Cliff somewhere before, choose the tool that works for you here and now. HD still has a long way to go and there is more work involved with that if you are doing projects that are needed here and now.

Sure, if you can afford it and your client wants it then yes, HD is the way to go. But if your client wants/needs SD then go with that. I personally have a HD camera but have yet to edit any HD. WHy? i do videos for guests at a resort, i shoot it all on HD and then downconvert straight from the camera and import as SD (much faster that way). So yes, i am cataloguing everything in HD but whippy do! I think it is great for the very near future and i have sold some to TV but my bread and butter is still SD and will be for a very long time.

Wasn't there some talk about an HC3 somewhere? 3 chip small camera? Perhaps would be best to wait for that, most likely a better lux than the HC1

HC3 ??? Please elaborate Mike.

Just got back from the Videoforum show at Earls court 2.. What can I say, kid in a sweet shop. Well, where all the sweets cost a years worth of pocket money and then some. HD shows were fantastic I just happen to be walking past the Sony stand when they were playing (I think) a BBC production with Alastair Fothergill presenting. All about HD. loads of underwater stuff. Freshwater shots of Salmon and some marine fish pieces. Looked stunning on the 36" HD screen. Could not talk to anyone to find out the cams used (to busy) but i expect it was the high end stuff. There were some excellent topside Grizzly footage from montana filmed with the Canon HDV on another stand. This positively superior cam really (drew) the crowds. "Sold to the man with the dwindleling bank balance" I must admit there was quite a feeding frenzy around the new HD Panny. I saw one of those beauties with a Firestore HDD wired to the side of it. Could be worth looking at.

Seminars with Adobe and Avid were something else. all great stuff. Made me feel like a very small fish in a huge technological ocean I caught a glimpse of Avids white / Black balance filter being used on a piece of HD footage (fantastic)

HD / HDV is the way forward by the look of it...

Also had a quick play with a Gates PC1000 housing (they did not have the A1E) Must say I didn't get on to well with the levers. After a lot of 'big up' talk, the lever for the zoom kept slipping. Not a very good first impression. Liked the construction though. I will wait and see what the PRO EVO's like.

All in all a good day

Dive safe

DeanB

Info on HC3 can be found at camcorderinfo.com, and at sonyhdvinfo.com. Looks like a great little cam, that also could be used as an inexpensive deck.

Cheers videodan,

Not rushing to sell my A1 yet..Looks good though.

Dive safe

DeanB

Cliff I thought your editorial on your website about the 'elitism' on this web site was a bit harsh http://www.uwdv.com/index.php/option/content/task/view/id/43

As has been pleasantly bantered here, there are many individual reasons for using particular technologies or techniques - everyone has his or her reasons. I find it very interesting to hear others views. Ultimately you make your own choice based on personal objectives and budget.

I have made the decision to play in both SD and HD camps. HD is definitely the future, and I'd like to learn as much about it as possible. I am highly budget constrained though, and your comment above about converting your Bluefin 950 rang true to my own sentiments too, so here is what I am doing:

I have a trusted TRV950 housing made by USVH, I love the size, and electronic controls for everything. Only downside IMHO is the exernal CC filter.

so .. made the move into HDV, needed good manual WB, bought A1; and now I'm re-fitting the 950 housing with USVH's blessing and a local machine shop to accomodate the A1 (and still be useable for the 950). Warren at USVH is reprogramming the PCB for the A1, and rewiring the LCD (the A1 and the 950 have different A/V ports). He has not yet worked out the WB issues (see other threads) so I'm having a hole drilled opposite the manual assign button, and I'll be able to access that control with a rod. Re the CC, the WB on these HDV cameras seems to correct through anything so I'm experimenting with an internal filter on the w/a correction lens, and hope that I can WB at any depth - including the surface. If that doesn't work, well I'll use the external one again...

All in all a new HDV housing for around $250 - not bad huh! So one can make the move and not break the bank.

And oh BTW Cliff I do concur with your sentiments that content is everything.

No point having the latest 'bleeding edge' technologies if you are not creative and don't shoot video - I've seen too many still camera techno-junkies shoot crap, vs their poor cousins and their box brownies. However, there is space for everyone out there, and be generous - even saying "we're not elite" smacks of 'elitism' to me .....

Yeah a bit harsh..

I get where Cliff's coming from in a way but I don't think people are being seriously 'Elitist' Just sometimes things get lost in translation. I have been hauled over the coals on another forum because of my beliefs, but it was ment to be funny / sarcastic in a U.K kinda way. You have to watch your jokes at times.

In my travels and meeting people in the last 2-3 years I have been overwhelmed by the Non-elitist attitude by most people in the industry. To me so far its people who have 'made it' that seem to be the most helpful, even though in a way you are trying to pinch their work I have met others who are on the same boat as me 'still trying' and are all nice on the night but then wouldn't give you the time of day after. But these are far and between.

If your doing what you love doing and are happy doing it. Then fair play and keep doing it. Don't worry about who's got what camera because Doug Allan and Howard hall will always have one better. "Elitist bastards" That was a joke, by the way.

Dive safe

Dean (the guru) B

Opinions, everyone has one. It's fun to hear different opinions and if your opinion is not shared, so what ?

Community forums, each has it's own unique feel and personality which is usually determined by it's members.

IMHO, this forum has the most experienced members and is the most informative.

Obviously people are free to not visit at all or just lurk in the background.

I have been hauled over the coals on another forum because of my beliefs, but it was ment to be funny / sarcastic in a U.K kinda way. You have to watch your jokes at times.

 

 

Dean (the guru) B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, you are the only gay in the village!!!

I now know where that came from (helps to work with one of those damn pommies!)

I won't haul you over the coals for sarcasm here Dean... us Canucks are far too sarcastic as well it seems....

I guys! Anyone with some experiences with Sony A1 underwater? I write that some people is using customed housing, how are first footages and first impressions?

Thank you :-)

ERIK

Ok, I guess I better clarify things:

At first I thought the response to my posts here was elitist in a sense, and I made sure I didn't mention WP.

But to make sure I wasn't making any specific conclusions, I started lurking about on places like scuba board, and other scuba type sites with video sections where people posted about the HD aspect of video - it seemed a common thread was evident. I'm not saying ALL are elitist, people are people, and there are some who make their idenity's out of what they own and use that as their so called security blanket. I've been a content creator for too long it seems - it seems very similar back in the old days of shooting film - Nikon-vs-Canon flame wars. I remember them all too well, especially when I was working in Newspaper. Shooting Canon was looked upon as something of anathama because newspapers photo pools were all Nikon.

Maybe I just had a bad day and it came across as such - for that I apologize to anyone who was offended. There was no intent of malice - only a perception on that particular day.

I have learned alot on WetPixel regarding digital still shooting and I hope that all who were surprised at my editorial won't hold it against me.

Toooooo Late Cliff,

I've got your number.

As soon as My loyal servant has finished wiping my royal arse i am boarding my private plane to come over and prance around you (in a non-feminine way) blatantly showing you my prowess..AKA my HDV cam...

Ha, ha..Alls cool me old mate (as we say in the Cotswolds)

Yeah cheers Mike, All talk when your on the other side of the world Send me a ticket and we can talk Man 2 man. In the shower

Erik, I will be hopefully trying out the A1 on Thursday. I will let you know how I got on then.

Love you all (in a friendly way)

Dive safe

DeanB

HDV vs DV, DVC Pro HD vs HDV.

Richorn is absolutely correct that one has to first decide how the content will be used before deciding a format.

This year is what 1995 was like for DV vs Hi 8. The year an awesome format (though imperfect) is making its way into the big market and that transistional phase that many hate. Remember HDTV has been around since the early 90s.

Even broadcast tv or cable networks like Discovery and NG are asking for HD content, though they specifically say HDV is not accepted as "real" HD content. Still, it will be accepted if upconverted to HD broadcast standards.

DV from 3CCD cameras have been blown up to 35mm res for theatrical film release. Sure you can see the difference but if the content is good... it doesn't matter.

Writepic:

My experience so far with HDV has been with the Z1 and A1 from Sony and the Canon XL-H1. There are many options right now to jump into HDV and you will have to choose based on your budget and needs. It also depends on your time scale you choose. If you are looking for something that'll do for 1-2 years, then a 3CCD DV will do (although you may have difficulty finding replacement cameras as they get phased out). If you are looking to enter HD content delivery (which should happen within the year) then jumping into HD now wouldn't be a bad idea since you are starting out. The price points are relatively good now but of course will only go down from here.