Is It A Case of Mistaken Identity? - Froggies

Here is something that I was quite interested in when I saw it!!! I'd be interested to know if anyone else has any information on this odd couple. These pics are all from Secret Bay, Bali, on Sept 11, 05.

At first I was thrilled to see these two together, I was told there were lots hispid frogfish at Secret Bay and was very excited when I saw what was apparently a small black male getting extremely cozy with a big yellow female. But something was wrong with the picture..........., my my........., the yellow female is clearly a hispid/pompom frogfish (Antennarius hispidus) but the black one is also very clearly the striated/striped frogfish (Antennarius striatus) as the lure clearly shows.

Other interesting data is it looks like this couple had been together for some time because jamesw has a photo of probably the same two together from one month earlier. Secret Bay is a very small place so I believe the picture james has on his website is the same couple.

I asked Graham Abbott from Diving 4 Images what was up with A. striatus apparently getting cozy with A. hispidus??? Mistaken identity?? Wonder if they ever hybridize?? Graham said he didn't know but he had seen these two species together before in close, mating-type pairings.

So it will be interesting to see if I can get any more information on these two. Any info welcomed.

Hope you enjoy this unusual look at these two interesting species! Carol

From behind here is A striatus (black) actively pushing up against A hispidus (yellow)

From the front - A striatus was always in active contact with the hispid frog, except when repositioning

This one I call "back door man", if it is indeed a "he", he is peeking from behind "her" here

At this point the striated frogfish separated from the hispid frogfish, possibly because of what was coming in the next two photos

It looks like "he" backed up a bit because "she" had something to say??

The small black striated frogfish is very smart not to approach "her" from the front, wouldn't you agree??

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder...., but then I don't even think the smaller one dared get this close, maybe that is a case for the mistaken ID???

The "mystery" and rare "beauty" of the female hispid frogfish

Awsome quality and composition on the last few - DSLR like

Thanks Steve,

These aren't my best froggies, just my most interesting I think, cause it is two different species. I'm lucky I got any pics at all though, my Inon D2000 strobe was mis-firing during these frogs but I thought it was something stupid I was doing. The next day it totally died........, turned out to be factory defective.

So I'm very pleased with any pics I got of this couple and I'm glad you think some are really good, that is encouraging.

More Soon!!!

Best, Carol

Great series Carol.

My first reaction was that it was a case of mistaken identity by humans. And that these were a pair of the same species. The froggies in Secret Bay are a bit wierd looking anyway and can't be quite difficult to ID because of their large size and very fluffy esca.

But looking at the esca of the balck one it does indeed look like a striatus.

My feeling is that this is simple territorial aggression between predators. It is pretty common to see this while diving. Groupers, scorpionfish, hawkfish, lionfish often indluge in this sort of inter and intra specific arguing.

So my feeling is that this is a territorial dispute rather than anything amorous.

Great set of images. Thanks for sharing

Alex

Great series Carol.

 

...my feeling is that this is a territorial dispute rather than anything amorous.

 

Great set of images. Thanks for sharing

 

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Alex, one of the first things that happens when a pair of anglerfish is preparing to spawn is swelling of the female's abdomen. This is very prominent and easily visible but is not happening here, so I think this is some kind of non-reproductive behavior.

Luiz

great set of images! love the yawning. very cool

Thanks everyone! I actually have about 20 pics of this couple, I'll have to dig into the others to see if they show anything even more interesting.

Alex and Luiz, thanks so much for your opinions, I do value them.

I've also got these pics out to a couple of people that know a lot about frogfishes, so I'll let you know any other opinions I gather. Rather interesting isn't it???

Personally I don't think it was aggressive behavior but then I do not have the training and academic certs you all do for sure!! But I have spent over 600 hours underwater for REEF and NOAA surveying, finding, measuring and observing fishes in this part of the world. Besides my own observations of A striatus in Florida, I agree with what Ned says in this book and I'll quote it here:

"Except during courtship and spawning, frogfishes tend to be solitary. If approached closely by another individual, the defender will take a position in front of its ambush site, raise on its pectorals, spread its medial fins, lighten, open its mouth, quiver and lean in the direction of the trespasser. In most confrontations the intruder will move away slowly, but occasionally will responding with a similar display. In rare instances, threatened frogfishes have been known to gulp water to increase their size."

 

Of course I have the edge of observing this posted pair over a total of almost three hours - spread over am and late afternoon, three dives. I never saw them display the above type territorial behavior as stated by Ned and they never separated except when the black one would "reposition". Yes she did "yawn" as in two of the pics, but that doesn't seem to be the behavior Ned is describing?

 

What I observed was very close to this quote:

 

"Courtship consists of the male, usually the smaller of the pair, staying close to the ripe female for the few days it takes her to swell with eggs. Periodically displaying erect fins, the male nudges, nibbles, leans on and presses his pectoral fins against the ballooning female.".........

 

Yes, Luiz she doesn't look "ballooned" or distended with eggs, but it is hard to tell with the pics I think she could be just starting, I'll check other pics to see if I have any more of that part of her body. Also doesn't it take the female a while to "swell" anyway, I understood a male will hang around for quite some time while she is becoming "ready"?

 

My very unscientific idea is that it might be mistaken identity, or maybe a young male just getting the hang of hanging around a female?? Again Graham Abbott told me he has seen these two species together before, very close like this and he was very curious about exactly what was up also? But then maybe you all are right and it is territorial???? What is that little black striatus doing, trying to irritate the hispidus into leaving?? I guess we need to ask them to get the full details... <_<

 

Again thanks so much for the input!!!!!!!! This is a fun mystery to work on, well it did happen in "Secret Bay" after all so what do we expect???

 

Thanks again, Best, Carol

Carol - I really love the behavioral sequences you've been putting up. They're gorgeous & informative - the very best kind of image! I guess I've been reading the same sources or seeing the same videos as you because I also think this is first stage of courtship. Have you contacted Ellen Muller for her opinion? She's spent a lot of time watching mating pairs & has some great shots of actual spawning & egg ribbons. Her galleries are at http://www.pbase.com/imagine

Hi Carol,

I hadn't commented before because I have no real insight as to what your two frogfish might be up to.

Were you able to confirm with James Wiseman or Sarah that your frogfish were the same pair that they had photographed months before?

Teresa Zuberbühler has photos and video of an Antennarius pictus with an Antennarius maculatus and observed "mating like" behavior between the two but she also speculates that the A. pictus may have been waiting for the release of the eggs from the A. maculatus in order to eat them.

http://www.starfish.ch/frogfish/frogfish-r...ion.html#mating

I guess until someone documents two different species in the act, we won't know for sure. Maybe you will find out from your experts that it has been confirmed, already.

Re: your quotes from the Ned DeLoach Reef Fish Behavior Book...

At the time that the book was written, Ned DeLoach mentions "Spawning in the wild has not been documented". As you know, this is no longer true and frogfish spawning in the wild has been documented on video and in photos. We are continuously increasing our knowledge of the habits of underwater creatures and the possibility of being able to document new and unusual behaviors is what makes diving so enjoyable for many of us. I will disagree with the statement that the male frogfish only sticks around for a few days. I have observed dozens of mating pairs of A. multiocellatus and have seen males staying near the females for months (many as long as 6-9 months). The males are usually much shyer, better camouflaged, and so much smaller than the females that they will often go unseen. I have seen several females that sandwiched the male between themselves and the sponge or coral and the only time that the male would be seen was if she moved! I have also observed the males go underneath a coral head or wedge themselves deep into the crevices of sponges making them impossible to spot! When the female is swollen with eggs the male will often become braver and that is usually when they will be spotted side by side. Consequently, I have heard many dive masters report that the males have gone away from the female but in reality they have just gone back into super hiding mode B) and are still very close by.

All of my observations are of Antennarius multiocellatus and I won't presume that behavior with other frogfish species will necessarily be the same.

The Coral Realm website had some great videos of frogfish behavior. One was on agression ( 1 being chased off by another), pre-spawning behavior with the male butting up against the female, and the best one which shows a swollen female first nudging a smaller male then when he ignores her she swallows him. Unfortunately you have to be a paying member to see the videos.

A really interesting discussion. My money is still on territorial aggression than sex. But I would love to be proved wrong.

I was in Secret Bay after James and before your Carol. I saw three pairs (below is the only picture I have online) and all were intra-species pairs. In fact what struct me as unusual was that the individuals in each pair were so similar in size.

Alex

Hi Gang,

Sarah and I dove Secret Bay on 8/11/05. I think the fact that the frogfish are all "packed in" together has to do a lot with the fact that the only structure in that part of Secret Bay is the riprap underneath the pearl-oyster racks.

Attached is a photo taken by Sarah showing THREE froggies together - two of which I believe are featured in Carol's photos.

The photo was taken Sarah :-)

Cheers

James

PS, isn't the internet incredible? We're having a conversation and posting photos OF Bali from California, Texas, and England!

Yes, everyone from around the world disscussing like this IS indeed incredible.

Thanks for ALL and every bit of input. I'm still waiting for "other" data too.

James, I'm glad Sarah is very perceptic with that camera and knows what is REALLY interesting to shoot... B) ...... Not that you don't know of course, but we gals have a differerent sort of perspective on things you know....

Ellen, I had seen your pics of the egg masses and marveled. VERY well done. I knew Ned's observations were a bit out of date, but still felt his descriptions or territorial behavior vs the mating behavior were valid. And yes, it was just one or two species he observed and the species are very different from the Indonesian ones of course. I've noticed that A. striatus really seems to move or better described "book" around on its fins a lot more than other species I've seen, pretty fast, even when just relaxed, not stressed or anything, so you are very correct to say the behaviors are different amongst frogs.

And I have no experience observing A. multiocellatus in Florida or anywhere else for that matter even though it is the most common in our neck of the sea.... . I've just observed A. striatus here in Florida, a presumed mating pair, but the female was black and the male striated. And I've also observed the uncommon A. ocellatus off Georgia, but only solitary, still the pic I took of that ocellatus is hanging in the NOAA offices, probably cause he was perched on a peach-colored sponge and you know how those Georgians are about their peaches!!!

I should probably make it to Bonaire one of these days and get some tips from Ellen!!

Then back to Indonesia......, yes James the frogs are "packed-in" there. Still I just thought it was so interesting to see A striatus and A hispidus together for that long as two different species. Too bad I wasn't able to get more info from the guys at Secret Bay on how long those two had actually been together. If anyone is going there maybe can get some more data???

Plus the idea of "waiting around" to eat eggs is very, very interesting also.

But let's remember that as Luiz pointed out this one doesn't look real swollen yet. Again got to look through my "other" pics, the ones that I was going to toss........

And Alex's money is on territorial aggression and he may well win the pot!!!

More later!!!! And any more comments welcomed!!

Thanks everyone!!!!!!!!!! Carol

I was at Secret Bay in Feb with Frogfish (robert) and we found a pair of hairys getting it on. They did the whole long travel, small one humping big one butI didn't get the spawning. Had I the time I would've stayed on to get that. Maybe Frogfish would garnish us with a pic of the 2?

I thought I'd post in here an email I recieved from Scott Michael re: these pictures and froggies. I promised to keep everyone updated with any "more expert" info that I received.

It looks like we all are right about our assumptions! (I love a game where everyone wins... ...)

Anyway Paul Humann forwarded my pics to Scott Michael and here is his reply. NOTE: at first before reading my captions, he felt the same way Alex and Luiz did about aggression, but after reading my captions he leaned towards the "pheromones" theory, etc. but wishing I had gotten back there the next day or two. He also states the hispidus is possibly an undescribed species, I had heard something of this myself?????

How about the locals??? They must have observed these two froggies together if James, Sarah and I did from the other side of the world??? You locals need to get there regularly and see what is up???

Anyway here is Scott's reply quoted from an email:

"Hello Carol.

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. I left town and have been very busy. The photos and the frogfishes are wonderful!

As you know, there are two different species of frogfish here - an Antennarius striatus and a A. cf. hispidus. There is a good chance this is an undescribed species, but it is currently still recognized as A. hispidus. It looks like a bout of aggression to me. But impossible to say from just these still photos. There is no doubt that frogfish do hybridize. This is especially likely to occur on occasion between two very closely related species (which A. striatus and A. hispidus are). I have certainly seen similar species cross in captivity. The abdomen of neither fish is turgid with hydrated eggs and the jaw expanding behavior is sometimes associated with aggression.

It is interesting that the two fish apparently stayed together (I just read the captions by the shots, which I had overlooked before). Usually, the subordinate fish will leave the general area after a bout of aggression has occurred. Based on the info provided, I would guess that the black fish is a male. If the female is approaching reproductive readiness, she may emit a pheromone (which I am convinced they do after watching them a lot in the field, but more testing needs to be done to confirm this) that could be attracting the heterospecific male, especially if none of "his kind" are in the area and ready to spawn. It would have been interesting to go back for the next day or two and see if the female had started to swell with hydrated eggs or not. Usually, they do so a couple days after a male arrives on the scene.

Very interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing!

Cheers!

Scott"

Hi Carol,

Thanks for the update. I am still confused by this. I guess we can't be 100% sure without some kind of follow-up. Maybe when you come back there!

Luiz

I'll be in Bali in August and certainly I'll be diving in Secret Bay. I'll keep my eyes peeled!

Alex