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Ready to buy

Started by Glasseye Snapper ·

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  • 15Replies

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Ready to buy

15 posts
  1. Half a year ago I asked the eternal question: "what should I buy" in this forum. I got a lot of sound advice and learned a lot more as others asked similar questions afterwards. I thought it would be useful for others still in agony over this decision to describe my choice and reasons behind it. That can also give the experts one more chance to prevent me from making a blunder.

     

    First of all, the perfect gear, if such a thing exists, depends on what you want to do with it. For me this means mostly fish portraits and behaviour. Unlike many who live at the two extremes; superwide angle and macro, most of my past shots are in the 30-100mm FF equivalent focal range and 1 to 6 foot distance. I will get wide and macro lenses at some point but for now I will focus my budget and learning at shooting 2" to 2' fish as close as I can get them.

     

    In addition to that I am charmed by the idea of flash-free filter photography, especially for snorkling.

     

    Camera

    =====

    From the start I had my eyes on the Canon 20D and that hasn't really changed. The 30D would have been worth the extra money but the housing won't be ready in time so a 20D it will be. For me the biggest selling point over the Nikon D70 is the sensor. Smaller pixels, so higher spatial resolution, and at the same time high ISO with lower noise. The latter is relevant for magick filter shoothing. Apart from that both are stellar cameras and the D70 is cheaper and maybe has an edge in low-light focus. Finally, and completely irrationally, the canon lens line-up is strangely intriguing to me. I'm convinced the Nikon lenses are just as good, they just aren't as sexy. Don't ask me to explain because I don't know the answer.

     

    Housing

    =====

    I'm coming from an Ikelite housing for the Canon G2 P&S and have been extremely pleased with it. I get at most two weeks of diving per year and at my current skill level and diving frequency I'm convinced the Ikelite will not limit my enjoyment and success and give me the best bang for the buck. The most annoying thing is the port-chart that is supposed to help you select lenses and corresponding ports. However, many lenses that you think should work are not listed. For others the aperture limits are not mentioned so you're not sure which lens they are talking about. Moreover, after oogling this forum and Ike's pages for 6 months I still have only a very rudimentary idea of how housing, port, lens, and focus/zoom control come together. Expect a detailed expose once I get my kit and figure it all out.

     

    Flash

    ===

    This has been a question of IF rather than WHICH. At some point I thought to skip on a flash and focus on filter photography. That would save enough money to buy a really sweet lens. However, I will need a flash down the road anyway and being limited to filter photography is, well, limited. So an Ikelite DS125 is on the shopping list.

     

    Lenses

    ====

    Oh the joys, sleepless nights, I-think-I-know-it-now-but-then-maybe-not world of dSLR lens choices. Possibilities are endless, the budget is not, and it is really hard to know how it is going to work underwater until you try. So this is how it has worked out for me.

     

    I really want to get the new 17-55mm f2.8 IS lens but it won't be out until I get back from holidays and I couldn't afford it together with all the other gear right now anyway. I don't want to spend significant bucks on lenses in that focal range because they would be obsolete if I do get the 17-55mm for my next trip.

     

    The broad concensus is that the 60mm F2.8 macro is the best general-purpose lens, good for fish & macro, so that has long be my number one contender and is still in the running. However, the 50mm F1.4 is looking very appealing too. They have a pretty similar and useful focal length for the size of fish I'm hunting and both are said to give razor sharp images. For most F2.8 is plenty fast so the macro is the deciding factor. But for filter photography, and especially trying to push it to greater depth, sucking in as much light for focus and exposure is the name of the game (see my tips and techniques forum message "Magick Numbers"). Unless I change my mind before the weekend it is going to be the 50mm. It's hard to catch damsels, wrasses, parots etc closer than 45cm anyway so I don't think I'll miss the macro terribly and since the 60mm macro is more expensive I can add a closeup lens or 12mm extension ring to get at least somewhat closer (but will loose infinity focus).

     

    I need a zoom lens topside and would at least like to have one UW so I'm not completely in 50mm mode for two weeks. The 28-105 f3.5-4.5 is my current pick. It is cheap but good if stopped down and it covers the longer end of the focal range so it will still be an interesting lens if I get a 17-55mm. It focuses down to 50cm, not great but not bad either for a 105mm max zoom lens. Finally, one person on this forum got shots with this lens that I would be jealous of getting.

     

    I think here my budget runs out. But if I were to stumble upon another $500 then I'd add a 100mm f2.8 macro to the basket to get true macro and a very nice telelens. Alex did some very exciting work in the tele range that would be nice to immitate (actually Herbko also showed some great telepics with a high content of "fish personality" as well). Finally, the limits of flash range for teleshots at moderate distance evaporates when using filters. So perhaps some experimenting along those lines could be of interest.

     

    Ports

    ====

    Oh yes, I need ports. All of the lenses I mentioned can be placed behind flat ports. The 28-105 needs the 2.5-3.5" lens port. The 50mm is only 2" but my guestimations show there should be no vignetting, perhaps a slightly positive buoyancy but I expect that can be handled. The extra length will also give me plenty of space to add an extension ring. So the current plan is to stick both lenses into the same port.

     

    Soon to be a lot poorer, yet a lot richer ;)

     

    Bart

    Edited by Glasseye Snapper
  2. I think you should begin with nailing down the camera. You seem set on the 20D and honestly, you can't go wrong with it. However, it seems that a lot of your thinking is based on last year's comparison between the D70 and 20D. I think you should at least give some thought to the D200. Its $600 more but its newer technology, a more capable camera than the 20D and fixes some of the issues you state with the D70. Housings are becomming available now. The decision should be based on lens system more than the body. I don't understand the comment about Canon lenses being sexier, but Nikon does have a few advantages including a 180 degree fisheye lens, a 105 AFS VR lens and all DX lenses being able to function on all Nikon cameras. Canon's 10-22 WA zoom is very good however.

     

    For lens selection I think you will be better off with the 60mm macro. I mostly shoot fish portraits as well and I love the 60mm. Its very similur to the 50mm but its sharper, and that's the key for fish portraits. It also does well as a macro lens from 1:4-1:1 which is important. Often you will want to shoot christmas tree worms and other small stuff that you just can't get with the 50mm. The 1.4 isn't something that you will use all that much. At strobe distances there really isn't much DOF at 1.4. Most shooting will be in the F8 range anyway. Everyone's art is different and there are applications for wide apertures but the 60mm is a classic for a reason.

     

    If you go with the 17-55mm I would recommend the dome port. I would suggest the 8" for maximum flexibility.

     

    Get strobes. I love filter photography. I had some excellent results shooting filters and manual white balance on my last trip, but most of the time you get better results with strobes. Filters work best in shallow water with less effective the deeper you go. Also, if you are shooting behavior the strobe helps to stop motion. There is no reason you can't shoot filters occasionally if you have strobes--and you should. But I think you are missing out without them. Get the DS125 its a great choice.

     

    Good Luck!

  3. Newer isn't necessary better. The high ISO perfomace of the 20D is still miles ahead. Here's an interesting comparision of the 20D, 30D and D200

     

    http://robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.as...-7891-8214-8216

     

    He has a nice summary in the "What's Missing?" section.

     

    On lenses: It may be a bit much to try to shoot fish from 2" to 2' with one lense. If you have your mind set on the 17-55 then it may be best to get the 100mm to go with it. This is a very quick focusing lense. I've had some sucess shooting small, quick moving fish with it on my 300D.

     

    I just bought a Tamron 28-75 F/2.8 for a general walkaround lens for the 5D and I'm quite please with it. It's sharp and focuses down to 1:4. A good value at $300. That may be a good range for most of what you want.

    Edited by herbko
  4. I think you should begin with nailing down the camera. You seem set on the 20D and honestly, you can't go wrong with it. However, it seems that a lot of your thinking is based on  last year's comparison between the D70 and 20D.  I think you should at least give some thought to the D200. Its $600 more but its newer technology, a more capable camera than the 20D and fixes some of the issues you state with the D70.

     

    Yes I should have at least mentioned the D200 because I did consider it. However, in the end the extra $600 didn't seem to be worth it. Some may say the extra $400 for the 20D over the 350D isn't worth it either but at some point you have to find your balance and the 20D with its nice sensor was the sweet spot for me

     

    The decision should be based on lens system more than the body. I don't understand the comment about Canon lenses being sexier, but Nikon does have a few advantages including a 180 degree fisheye lens, a 105 AFS VR lens and all DX lenses being able to function on all Nikon cameras.  Canon's 10-22 WA zoom is very good however.

     

    As I said I don't understand myself what I find more appealing about the Canon lenses. I haven't been biased to a Nikon or Canon camp yet and it has nothing to do with which brand I think has better lenses. Must be some dirty subliminal PR trick from Canon or just the allure of "L" and a little red band around a barrel, not that I'm currently planning to buy any of those. Of the Nikon line-up my greatest envy would be for the new 105 VR macro lens. Canon did follow Nikon's lead in making the 17-55mm f2.8. Let's hope they copy this latest lens in the form of a 100mm IS macro.

     

    For lens selection I think you will be better off with the 60mm macro. I mostly shoot fish portraits as well and I love the 60mm. Its very similur to the 50mm but its sharper, and that's the key for fish portraits.  It also does well as a macro lens from 1:4-1:1 which is important. Often you will want to shoot christmas tree worms and other small stuff that you just can't get with the 50mm. The 1.4 isn't something that you will use all that much. At strobe distances there really isn't much DOF at 1.4. Most shooting will be in the F8 range anyway.  Everyone's art is different and there are applications for wide apertures but the 60mm is a classic for a reason.

     

    I have been switching between these two on a regular basis and now you spoiled my latest "decision" again. From what I've heard the 50mm is as sharp as the 60mm at equal distance and aperture. So the real question is what is more valuable, close focus or wider aperture. I agree that for most purposes the macro capabilities of the 60mm win out. However, the limited DOF at 1.8-2.0 (1.4 doesn't seem to be realistic) is a challenge but also an opportunity to really focus on the subject of interest. Pretty much the same applies to macro shots. In addition, with filters you can shoot at greater distance as long as visibility conditions are good, so DOF becomes a bit easier. The big question is does the large aperture help demanding light situations in filter shooting. I must say I was a bit surprized to find that the magick filters loose only about two stops of light, so you may not need anything more than 2.8. Alex's comments also suggested that at least for autofocus filters don't pose a serious problem. However, I do want to experiment with more extreme filters where perhaps a faster lens does help out. Finally, would you come to the same conclusion if you already have the 100mm macro lens. I don't have one but it is on my to-buy list as soon as the budget recovers.

     

     

    Get strobes. I love filter photography. I had some excellent results shooting filters and manual white balance on my last trip, but most of the time you get better results with strobes. Filters work best in shallow water with less effective the deeper you go. Also, if you are shooting behavior the strobe helps to stop motion. There is no reason you can't shoot filters occasionally if you have strobes--and you should. But I think you are missing out without them. Get the DS125 its a great choice.

     

    Yes that's what I figured so the DS125 is definately on the buy-immediately list. The place I'm going to does however have great snorkling right of the beach so I will probably get at least as many ours snorkeling as diving out of the upcoming trip, and a lot of that will be exploring filter photography.

     

    Bart

  5. Hi Bart,

     

    Of the Nikon line-up my greatest envy would be for the new 105 VR macro lens.  Let's hope they copy this latest lens in the form of a 100mm IS macro.

     

    I wouldn't get too excited about that. Canon already has the ultrasonic motored 100mm USM macro lens - it's been out for years and it's a dream. It's internal focusing, and uses the same focus mechanism type as the newer Nikon.

     

    Nikon has finally caught up here. I'm not sure how useful VR is in a 100mm lens - especially for underwater use, so it looks like Nikon just threw that on because they can. Still, I'm sure it's nice to have.

     

    Cheers

    James

    Edited by james
  6. I agree with James, the one Canon lens that I envyed for a long time was the 100 USM (for the internal, fast focus), well, not anymore! ;)

     

    Luiz

  7. Nikon has finally caught up here.  I'm not sure how useful VR is in a 100mm lens - especially for underwater use, so it looks like Nikon just threw that on because they can.  Still, I'm sure it's nice to have.

     

    Cheers

    James

     

    In that line of reasoning you could think that Canon slapped on the IS for its 17-55mm to compensate for Nikon beating them on getting that lens out and now Nikon is giving tit for tat with the VR on the 100mm. In my unexperienced expectation I would think that VR/IS is more useful the longer the focal length because the shutter time is more limited by shake than by movement of the subject your shooting, compared to wider lenses. If IS/VR can double exposure times then I had expected it to be of interest.

     

    Bart

  8. Yes that's what I figured so the DS125 is definately on the buy-immediately list. The place I'm going to does however have great snorkling right of the beach so I will probably get at least as many ours snorkeling as diving out of the upcoming trip, and a lot of that will be exploring filter photography.

     

    I love snorkelling and its much easier to snorkel without strobes to worry about. The fun of snorkelling is the freedom of swimming without all the gear. I enjoyed many hours snorkelling with a filter on my 15mm FE with great results.

    Edited by UWphotoNewbie
  9. Newer isn't necessary better. The high ISO perfomace of the 20D is still miles ahead. Here's an interesting comparision of the 20D, 30D and D200

     

    http://robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.as...-7891-8214-8216

     

    He has a nice summary in the "What's Missing?" section.

     

    On lenses: It may be a bit much to try to shoot fish from 2" to 2' with one lense. If you have your mind set on the 17-55 then it may be best to get the 100mm to go with it. This is a very quick focusing lense.  I've had some sucess shooting small, quick moving fish with it on my 300D.

     

    I just bought a Tamron 28-75 F/2.8 for a general walkaround lens for the 5D and I'm quite please with it. It's sharp and focuses down to 1:4. A good value at $300. That may be a good range for most of what you want.

     

    The Tamron lens looks quite interesting and also focuses closer. On the Tamron web site the length of the lens is listed at 92mm (3.6") but on lens reviews I read that the fully extended lens is 129 mm (another site said less than 4.5"). I though the spec sheets gave the maximum length of zoom lenses, but it appears to be the minimum. Does anyone know a site with info on the min/max lengths of lenses. I couldn't find one on the Canon pages or by using Google. It's kind of important to make sure you get a long enough port and no vignetting at the wide angle of the zoom range.

     

    Bart

  10. The Tamron lens looks quite interesting and also focuses closer. On the Tamron web site the length of the lens is listed at 92mm (3.6") but on lens reviews I read that the fully extended lens is 129 mm (another site said less than 4.5"). I though the spec sheets gave the maximum length of zoom lenses, but it appears to be the minimum. Does anyone know a site with info on the min/max lengths of lenses. I couldn't find one on the Canon pages or by using Google. It's kind of important to make sure you get a long enough port and no vignetting at the wide angle of the zoom range.

     

    Bart

     

    The info on the Tamron site is correct. It's 129mm long at 75mm focal length and 92mm long at 28mm focal length.

  11. So it does the opposite of the Sigma which is fully extended at the 24mm end and shortest at the 70mm end. I recommend having a look at the Sigmas 24-70 F2.8

     

    Cheers

    James

  12. So it does the opposite of the Sigma which is fully extended at the 24mm end and shortest at the 70mm end.  I recommend having a look at the Sigmas 24-70 F2.8

     

    Cheers

    James

     

    Unfortunately the 24-70 f2.8 from sigma is 3.5" in diameter which is too wide for the Ikelite ports. The 28-70 f2.8 at 2.9" diameter would fit. Does that one have the same weird zoom mechanism with the widest angle at full extension? and where do you find such information besides going to the camera store with a ruler and test them all out.

     

    Bart

  13. If you shoot Nikon the 17-55 is defiantly the lens for the type of shooting you describe. With the 60 micro, as you mentioned, second place.

  14. Unfortunately the 24-70 f2.8 from sigma is 3.5" in diameter which is too wide for the Ikelite ports. The 28-70 f2.8 at 2.9" diameter would fit. Does that one have the same weird zoom mechanism with the widest angle at full extension? and where do you find such information besides going to the camera store with a ruler and test them all out.

     

    Bart

     

    James has a Sigma 24-70, and I own a Tamron 28-75. What do you want to know?

    Edited by herbko
  15. I also have the Tokina 28-70 F2.8. It's not a good lens for underwater use as the close focus is too far from the lens. On the plus side, it doesn't change length while zooming...

     

    Cheers

    James

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