Subtronic Flash

Has anyone had an recurring problems with the functionality of a Subtronic flash?

After years of being delighted with three SB104, they finally wore out. So I swapped to two Subtronic. One has been fine but another repeatedly gets returned for repair. These repairs are not a result of flooding. Just electronic failure.

I have been very happy with them otherwise! Steve Warren has been very supported in lending me a replacement while the one was away but so far I have spent £420 on repairs to a £750 flashgun. I wonder if the problem is a one-off or endemic. Anyone else having recurring problems?

Hi John

I used 2 of the older Subtronic SF3003's for 9 years - neither of them ever missed a beat. I believe the more powerful Megas were subject to some bad press initially - and yes, it was the circuitry. But recharging 350 watt capacitors in under 2 seconds puts an incredible strain on all the electrical components.

Harald Hordosch of Seacam told me he deliberately increased the recharge time of his own latest digital range to increase reliability. These particular models no longer use subtronic circuitry but the decision does highlight the challenges of producing high speed/high capacity strobes - they can trade some reliability for performance.

Nonetheless, I've been using Megas for a good few years, and so far so good - although I've probably cursed myself by saying that

I think Alex has had problems with his subtronics.....

Steve

Yes! I have.

In the last 5 months I have twice had to send my one of my Subtronics back to Germany because the 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 manual power settings have failed. At the moment I am not sure whether this is the same gun going wrong twice or both guns separately developing the same problem. They were also back in Germany at the start of 2005. And they have also been back to germany on at least three other occasions (once when the TTL failed, when I was shooting on film, once when one would not fire and once when the strobe would not switch on). Before the 3 visits in the last 18month the other problems were all seperated by at least a year - so not too bad.

Unfortunately I am not as lucky with you and Steve Warren has not been able to lend me a replacement on this occasion - so I was driving up to Teddington yesterday afternoon - to beg and borrow some strobes from friends!

I know of at least one other UK user who is having similar issues with big Subtronics. And I also know that the Subtronic Minis that have come into the UK have also caused quite a few issues (Mark Webster has the most experience with them).

Despite this, and the weight and the non-removeable batteries, I really love my Subtronics and would like to get another one so I have some more reliability backup. But I want to find out what is going on. Otherwise I will change brands.

Unfortunately I hear nothing. I have been trying to find out what is going on through the correct channels. Asking my dealer to ask the manufacturer (rather than bugging the manufacturer direct). But I hear nothing. So I am going to Asia for a shoot for an asian magazine without my own strobes. Which pisses me off.

Anyway I would really like to do a post about this on one of the German underwater photography forums - where there are far more Subtronics users - and we can find out whether we are just being unlucky or whether there are inherent problems.

http://www.uwpix.net/phpbb/

http://www.digideep.com/forum/index.php?c=9000&language=de

Alex

Don't worry fellas, one of my Sea and Seas is dying too.... so i feel your pain...

But it has served me well for about 3000 dives and never been serviced.. is that enough?

Hi John,

I own two Subtrnic Mini's as Alex says - they are now just over two years old. They have had to go back to Subtronic once for repair, both for a charging fault after 18 months use. Otherwise (touch wood!) they have performed well. Mine are the original 'film' TTL guns - I had the latest larger capacity batteries installed to increase the number of flashes per charge. This is now at least 150, so I normally charge between dives - on the fast charger this is around one hour.

Cheers,

Mark

www.photec.co.uk

I am just about to return the one I picked up last week after a repair. It does not charge. This contrasts strongly with my experience regarding my studio flash. (When I sold my studio in 1992 I kept 4000j that was already ten years old and had enjoyed daily usage. I still use it today although it has a street value approaching zero. It never misses a beat.) It’s different with u/w kit and it's often hard to explain that your livelihood depends on coming back with results!

If you're looking for reliability, I've been extremely happy with my Sea & Sea YS-120s - several other photographers I know use them vigorously also, and haven't had any problems. They lack some adjustability (1/2 and full power) but this is easily compensated for with camera settings. The most impressive thing I have seen is several that have had the battery compartment flood have been cleaned and work fine without any problems.

My solo YS 120 has lasted um at least 5 years now. One battery compartment flooding (sealed so no flood is catastrophic) Never been serviced and works perfect every time still.

It must have done at least 2000 dives, 1200 in the first two years, so probably fired 60,000 times.

It's big and heavey and needs 8 AA's but it has served me well.

Now if I compare that to How Alex uses his subtronics, my YS 120 may have well stayed in the BOX. Alex probably uses his strobes as much in a month in Cayman as much as I do in a year !!

I know things shouldn't fade when you juse them too much, but thats life hey !

My Olympus 3040 started having troubles after 2 years of solid use, my strobe way outlasted that at least. Oh and now my 120 is worth $100 more ! so I could sell it for what I bought it for or close !

Hi John

I bet you wish you had them trusty 104's still.

they don't build things like they used to eh !!

i'd be quite furious if it were my hard earned.

To see that what I've always regarded as "THE BEST" is apparently failing a number of pro users is saying something in my mind.

I've just switched over to Inon Z-240 myself, so i hope they serve me well. not to mention the weight i've saved in my kit bag... sweet little things that pack a nice punch.

Now all my camera gear can travel with me in cabin baggage allowance, that is until they weigh the contents of my pockets " lots of sweet nikkors in there"

mmmmmm,, where do i stick my 80-400 VR ?

regards

craig

Hi Craig

Steve W confused my addled old brain today when he told me digital cameras did not need such powerful flashguns. I still use my DSLR at 100ISO and like to use f./5.6, f./8 and f./11 just as I did with film. What's going on? Why would I be able to get away with little flashguns? What stops do you habitually use? Is it because computer screens are so forgiving when you view the pictures. Alas, the Webb off-set is still the same as ever it was!

Alex,

I am sorry that you have so much hassle with your strobes. Well, there are Subtronic users over here but I can’t remember reading something about the particular problem you have. However, if you need some translated words ...

Wish you luck with the borrowed strobes :-)

Julian

This is typical of the sort of snaps I take underwater. The frilly edge of the wobbegong is about six inches from the dome and the tail around eight feet away. The Subtronic Alpha flashguns are held high above to light the animal as evenly as I can. I used f./9.5 (at ISO100). Will the Inons be bright enough to do this?

Hello John

according to the data on http://www.digitaldiver.net/strobes.php

your subtronic Alphas have a UW GN of 11 Alpha Pro's GN 16

the same site says GN of Z-240 12 UW

so if i do the maths on that mate

Alpha = 11/9.5 = STSD 3.8 Ft

Alpha Pros = 16/9.5 = STSD 5.5ft

Z-240 = 12/9.5 = STSD 4.1ft

Thats the maths. according to that strobe index

but we are talking here about STSD to totally expose the subject here and not just balance it.

i should think from this data that the rear section of the wobby, will appear about 1.3ev less than the front.

as Paul Daniels would say "not a lot" 1 stop of light do you rekon..

But i really cant get my head around it, subtronics look a lot more powerful than the figures say.. we do have the Watt energy to think about as well, but not sure where that fits into normal calculations as all flash exposures as i know work on the STSD = GN/F-stop sum.

Moving up to the MEGA guns, yeh a massive difference..

anyway, enough rubbish from me

regards

craig.

p.s I forgot that you like to provoke topical conversations on forums , & now your laughing at me for taking the bait. ... fool me eh !!, but the figures are there in black and white. or are simply holographic

Bait taken on both sides methinks!

Is the angle of coverage the same with both flashguns? The Alpha (160ws) has a very wide coverage (85 degrees) that enables me to light the wobbegong (for example) holding the flash at arms length (Lets say 2m from the subject). The guide numbers might be comparable for the centre of the cone of light produced but I want to light the whole of the animal.

As an example of what I mean I include two beam shots from one Halcyon light but with different width beams. The light produced is the same but in one case it is spread about more! The tighter beam measures brighter at the centre - no surprise there!

You might tell me the coverage is the same, in which case maybe Inon here I come!

Hi John.

The Data on Inon gives it 100h x 100v thats the same angle as a Round tube on the Ikelites new DS200

the data on subtronics are as followed.

Alpha = 106h x 106v

Alpha pro = 108h x 108v

Mega's = 112h x 112v

Maxi = 116v x 116h

Bit of a geek for the figures aren't I, well again all this data was taken from the excellent Digital Diver Strobe database.

So Sub's are a smidge wider, but going off the data, all the weight and problematic areas are just not worth that extra 6o of beam angle.

Could this be a strobe test on the horizon, I'll give you a hand if you wish, bring my Z-240's and i can get Sb-105's and Ys90's

regards

craig

Data aside, i still think that your correct about the subtronics, but the maths is saying otherwise

Craig, You have convinced me. When I get back from Egypt I am going to buy a pair of Inons. Do you want to claim some commission on the sale?

JB

Those guide numbers just don't seem right to me. My gut feeling is that the Alpha's have a LOT more power than the Inon Z240. That just doesn't seem right. But I haven't tested the 240 yet (did own the 220's)

Cheers

James

Those guide numbers just don't seem right to me.  My gut feeling is that the Alpha's have a LOT more power than the Inon Z240.  That just doesn't seem right.  But I haven't tested the 240 yet (did own the 220's)

 

Cheers

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they just dont seem right to me lads as well, i got the data from the Strobe database at digital diver.

without some hard testing john, keep your money in your pockets for now, if you want to try my Z-240's to compare firstly , only too happy for you to have a crack with them... Capernwray ?

just been looking around the net at data.. (subtronics site)

Subtronics site gives GN 14 for the Alpha 16 for the Alpha pro

14/9.5 = 4.8ft STSD Alphas

16/9.5 = 5.5ft STSD Alpha Pro

Looking as i would have thought on the better side......but

12/9.5 = 4.1ft Inon z-240

12 / 8 = 4.9ft Inon Z-240

Alphas are about what a 1/3 to 2/3 of a stop brighter according to all that data then..

enjoy taba, say hi to the dolphins for me, and make sure that camera and flash work this time they come to say hello.

regards

craig

g

I am not sure if anyone who put together the digital diver strobe database has ever used a Subtronic.

The best way to compare strobes is in Watt Seconds. All the manufacturers quote this and it avoids the optimism of GN and UW GN.

Alex