Nikon D200 or Canon 5D?

Nikon D200 or Canon 5D?

I need help deciding which path to take here.

I am upgrading from a Canon s50 point and shoot, with the Canon casing.

I have looked at both and performed some basic operations, and I like them both.

I have read the reviews, but have not seen any comparison review, although in “What Digital Camera†magazine a few months ago there was apparently

a comparison and it said the 5D was better. But there is a price difference

and they don't talk about UW.

I am an amateur and intend to use the camera for both above and underwater.

I will shoot a mix of wide angle and macro and also with and without the flash.

I noticed that on the D200 there are four memories A,B,C,D for setting up shooting parameters that are frequently used. Just wondered do Nikon people use these memories underwater? (I think the 5D has only one memory.)

Is there any benefit to the wireless operation of the D200 for underwater use?

(e.g. like pure electronic interface on some housings?)

The 5D has a greater resolution, which would give more flexibility for cropping. However perhaps this is not a key advantage? What other reasons did people have for buying the Canon 5D – apart from already owning lenses.

I understand that the 5D is full frame, i.e. can get wider angle and more light on to the larger sensor? Is this is a real advantage? Is there a downside like longer heavier telephoto lenses when using it topside?

Also, I was told that there were limited high quality auto-focus lenses available for the Canon vs the Nikon. If this is not true are there more lenses available for

one brand or the other? Ie. Are there more third party lense manufactures for

one brand or the other?

Does the image stabilisation work better for one camera or the other?

Do people recommend the IS or VR lenses for UW? (I like natural light

shots, sometimes looking out of cave with silouttes etc)

What about the suitability of each camera for operation under-water? One person mention that CCD has more vivid colours than CMOS, but I note that high end Nikons use CMOS.

Is either camera better in low light?

What about strobes and housings, are the more choice or better value

with one or the other brand?

Are there any double seal housings out there for these cameras?

Do people with either of these camera have any thing they don’t like or wish the camera did?

I guess the size of the 5D files will be larger than the D200. I was figuring a 120Gb disk at say 20Mb/pic = approx 6,000 pics vs 12,000pics at 10Mb/pic for

the 200D. Do people find storage a problem? Do people with the 5D find

they don't really need the higher res?

Do people ever have problems with having to change the battery between dives, I would really prefer not to do this?

Are the accessories significantly cheaper for Nikon or Canon?

How many people have changed from Nikon to Canon and vice versa and why?

I hope someone replies, as it is a difficult decision.

Thanks Matt

Hi Matt,

I recommend you have a read through the previous threads comparing the 5D to the D200. You can find them by using the "Search" function. You should not be surprised to find that this has been discussed here before as these are both very popular cameras.

After you've had a read, I bet if you come back with a more tightly focused question list, you will get a healthy response.

Cheers

James

If you don't already know of it, I might surf over to the forums on dpreview where you'll find a wealth of information about both of these cameras and corresponding lenses: http://dpreview.com/forums

Both are excellent cameras and both are choices you will be happy with, once you have made them.

I have never used either camera underwater. But I'll indulge in some speculation. The differences are all small.

My take is that the 5D has better image quality. And considerably better noise reduction at high ISOs, which would make it great for filter and deep wreck photography. The 5D handles sunbursts very well. The D200 probably will too - I just haven't seen it yet. So I would put the 5D ahead for wide angle.

The D200 is probably slightly ahead from macro, with slightly better UW-AF, slightly fast synch speed (to get black backgrounds). The D200 has a few more housing options, although nearly all the main housing manufacturers make housings for both.

But the differences are pretty small. Try both and decide which you like the most. Afterall once you jump you will probably stick with that brand for 10+ years...

Alex

p.s. You may also want to read this:

http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/when-to-jump/

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses.

James, I have read nearly all the stuff on the site about both cameras. I also spoke to “Spoon†(I believe) who raised the same question. He chose the D200

and Nexus housing and gave very clear and persuasive reasons for his decision,

particularly wrt the housing choice.

I have also read numerous reviews, here and elsewhere (including dpreview), I

have used each camera for about an hour each and read through the manuals.

But beyond a certain point these sources don’t add a lot more value. That is

why I wanted to ask people who had gone through the same process (i.e.

choosing D200 vs 5D, i.e. when you don’t already have a lot of Canon or Nikon

lenses), particularly how your choices performed UW.

Alex, thanks for your balanced comparisons, definitely helpful. (I guess, ceteris

paribus one might tilt towards the 5D based on what your comments. I note

your comments "when-to-jump" on not getting too uptight about making a

decision. Actually, I am enjoying the process of choosing and also learning a lot

along the way. In fact, I would never have found this website if I was not

undertaking this research.)

I am fully aware that whatever I choose it will take a quite a while before I can

competently utilise all the capabilities of these cameras. Nevertheless, it still

makes sense to do my research since it is liekly to be a pretty long term

decision.

I look forward to any more comments, particularly by anyone else who went through the same process of choosing between the D200, 5D and then a housing?

Regards

Matt

Hi All,

Anyone know anything about these banding issues:

Canon EOS 5D

http://www.dslrphoto.com/2006/02/23/chuck-...banding-issues/

Nikon D200

http://www.dslrphoto.com/index.php?s=d200+banding

Seems to be lot of talk about these probs, are they fixed? Are they real?

Regards

Matt

Hi Matt,

I'll take a stab at it...it's a slow work day....

"I noticed that on the D200 there are four memories A,B,C,D for setting up shooting parameters that are frequently used. Just wondered do Nikon people use these memories underwater? (I think the 5D has only one memory.)"

Memory modes are likely not used as you will be in Manual Mode and with a well built housing, all variables such as Aperature, Shutter speed, ISO, focus point, Focus mode will be easily accessible. It's impossible to predict each particular shooting situation so memory functions are IMHO useless...especially UW.

"Is there any benefit to the wireless operation of the D200 for underwater use?

(e.g. like pure electronic interface on some housings?)"

No. LMI is the only one with Electronic controls and that's via USB.

"The 5D has a greater resolution, which would give more flexibility for cropping. However perhaps this is not a key advantage? What other reasons did people have for buying the Canon 5D – apart from already owning lenses."

I shot the 10D for 3 years and just upgraded to the 5D. The 5D has incredible dynamic range and is killer for WA shots with the Sun. Being able to use the 15mm fisheye as it was designed for ....wide angle is a joy. I try to compose my images to avoid cropping. See this post: http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13035

"I understand that the 5D is full frame, i.e. can get wider angle and more light on to the larger sensor? Is this is a real advantage? Is there a downside like longer heavier telephoto lenses when using it topside?"

A full frame sensor has larger photosites, giving inherently greater dynamic range, also there is conversation that cropped sensor cameras have about a stop more Depth of Field over a full frame chip...handy for portrait shooting I guess. Focal length of a lens doesn't change from a 5D vs a D200, it's just that the D200 sees less of the image...the famed "Magnification Factor". The advantage does go to the D200 if you are using telephoto lenses as you end up with a 750 F4 vs a 500 F4 on a full frame chip. Underwater, Nikon has a line of DX lenses to make up for the crop.

"Also, I was told that there were limited high quality auto-focus lenses available for the Canon vs the Nikon. If this is not true are there more lenses available for

one brand or the other? Ie. Are there more third party lense manufactures for

one brand or the other? "

Canon and Nikon (choke!) both have fantastic lines of AF lenses though the Canon super telephotos have IS available in conjunction with USM focusing, I believe Nikon only has the 200-400 F4 AFS VR. Sigma, Tamron & Tokina make mounts for both F and EOS.

"Does the image stabilisation work better for one camera or the other?

Do people recommend the IS or VR lenses for UW? (I like natural light

shots, sometimes looking out of cave with silouttes etc)"

IS/VR lenses are useless UW. A slow shutter speed isn't going to help if your subject is moving. Better to increase the ISO sensitivitiy of the camera...and in this case the 5D will win hands down.

"What about the suitability of each camera for operation under-water? One person mention that CCD has more vivid colours than CMOS, but I note that high end Nikons use CMOS."

Colours are easily adjusted in Photoshop, but both bodies have in camera adjustments for saturation. Non-issue.

"Is either camera better in low light?"

Low light AF or Low Light photos? AF I'd judge to be the same, Low Light... 5D.

"What about strobes and housings, are the more choice or better value

with one or the other brand?"

All major manufacturers make housings for both. Nexus used to be Nikon only but has now come out with Canon housings. Strobes are compatible across the board.

"Are there any double seal housings out there for these cameras? "

Some housings have dual Orings on controls, but not the main O-Ring (Port & Back)

"Do people with either of these camera have any thing they don’t like or wish the camera did?"

For what I use my 5D for (UW/Landscape/Wildlife & Catalog shoots) ... No

"I guess the size of the 5D files will be larger than the D200. I was figuring a 120Gb disk at say 20Mb/pic = approx 6,000 pics vs 12,000pics at 10Mb/pic for

the 200D. Do people find storage a problem? Do people with the 5D find

they don't really need the higher res?"

Not sure where you're getting your file sizes, but a 5D raw file is about 12-14MB...so less for a D200. Storage is cheap, bring a laptop with a large hard drive and with a DVD burner to store each day's shoot, a portable storage unit as well.

"Do people ever have problems with having to change the battery between dives, I would really prefer not to do this?"

The BP511A of the 5D is rated for 800 images at 25 degrees C. I doubt you'll shoot more than 800 images a day.

"Are the accessories significantly cheaper for Nikon or Canon? "

No, they're both expensive.

Re: Banding Issue

Most of the banding is seen in shadow areas of images that were intentionally underexposed then pushed up in Photoshop. So, while the banding techinically is there...it's only through judicious punishing of the image will you see it.

Hope this helps.

Stu

A fair assessment from Stu on most counts

FWIW....my NEF files are 15+ MB

D200 is 1/2 the price of the 5D

Karl

I haven't seen the D200 on our boat, but I shoot with the 5D and have compared it to images from the D2X - shooting high ISO filter work (thanks Alex - the Magic filters are amazing!!) the 5D outperformed the D2x with noticably less image noise. Does this mean anything for the D200 because it's a CCD as opposed to a CMOS sensor? I have no idea - but the difference in crop factor and resolution is significant I believe. Hope this helps.

For a quick side-by-side comparison of the technical performance of the 2 cameras, check out:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond200/page25.asp

Only thing I would disagree on in this review is that I prefer a multi-selector than a single wheel to control the camera...

Hi Guys,

I don't mind revisiting this issue now that the D200 is actually available and their are underwater housings on the market. Time to look at this again!

For above water use and just to have a camera in general, I think the 5D is the better choice. The reasons are:

Better low light performance - very important for the "golden hour"

Much better wide lens selection - Canon has fast wide primes for digital, Nikon doesn't

Much better telephoto selection - Canon teles are cheaper, and they have IS.

For underwater use, I'd probably recommend the D200. Reasons:

Cost of the camera is less and if you're ONLY going to use it underwater, a very limited use - then why spend the $$ for stuff you don't need?

Housing support - my gut feeling is that the D200 will have a wider variety of UW housings, and at a lower price. This is purely because of a perception in our industry that the D200 will be THE most popular

Nikon's lens selection for underwater use is fine. They have the 10.5, 12-24, and 16mm. Their macro lens (105mm) has finally been updated to the same standard as the Canon.

Cheers

James

But I think the most important point is that both are awesome cameras. And neither would be a bad choice.

Alex

p.s. Plus Brian, I want to see some of the filter shots that you and Jim have been getting in the Bahamas! I am sure that they are amazing.

Hi James,

I don't mean to start that old fight between Nikon and Canon users, but I'm not so sure on your comments regarding both WA lens line-up and price of telephoto lenses.

Nikon has a very similar lineup of fast, prime WA lenses to that of Canon (8 prime WA lenses between F1.4 and F2.8 v/s 9 such lenses for Canon). I've created a little summary table of the respective line-ups:

Canon -> Nikon

14mm F2.8 -> 14mm F2.8

15mm F2.8 FE -> 16mm F2.8 FE

XX -> 18mm F2.8

20mm F2.8 -> 20mm F2.8

24mm F1.4 -> XX

24mm F2.8 -> 24mm F2.8

28mm F1.8 -> 28mm F1.4 (Nikon lens is slightly faster)

28mm F2.8 -> 28mm F2.8

35mm F1.4 -> XX

35mm F2.0 -> 35mm F2.0

And as for prices (based on Singapore, where I live), most Canon and Nikon tele lenses of similar performance (focal length, max. aperture and technology) are generally priced within 1% of each other . Where Nikon and Canon lenses are relatively similar in nature, I've tabled the RRP listed on the manufacturers' respective websites below for comparisons.

Canon Nikon

85mm F2.0 = S$780 -> S$750

100mm F2.0 = S$920 -> S$1,730 (105mm, as no exact equivalent, not exactly fair comparison)

135mm F2.0 = S$1,690 -> S$2,120

200mm F2.8 = S$1,490 -> S$1,490 (180mm, as no exact equivalent)

300mm F2.8 = S$9,290 -> S$9,200

300mm F4.0 = S$2,590 -> S$2,330

400mm F2.8 = S$15,290 -> S$16,200

500mm F4.0 = S$12,990 -> S$12,800

600mm F4.0 = S$17,390 -> S$17,200

Cheers,

Mat

PS: Yes, I know, nothing better to do on a slow Saturday afternoon

Sorry Mat, I didn't mean to get into this. I think you may not have understood my comparison and my "generalizations" still stand.

The wide angles Nikon lenses ares not wide angle on their digital bodies. I consider wideangle anything equivalent to a 28mm lens on a FF camera.

So even the Nikkor 20mm isn't a wide fast prime when used with Nikon digital cameras.

In your telephoto lens price comparison, you are comparing the IS versions of the big boys to the non-stabilized Nikon lenses, and that's not accurate either.

Cheers

James

If I can add a comment or two. Both are (as Alex says) excellent cameras - I've seen shots from both (underwater) and they are both fine. If you intend shooting fast wides then despite esoteric complaints about Canon wides, Canon has more and some are far faster. Macro lenses from both are now essentially comparable in my opinion.

Choosing between the D200 and 5D is very difficult if you start from no bias. From what I have seen of both cameras I'd probably tend towards the 5D if I had no already owned lenses. It has very low noise and handles well above water.

I pondered the same question recently and had no previous investment in lenses to push me one way or the other. I voted with my pocketbook for the 5D. I haven't taken it underwater yet. I have an Aquatica housing on order, so I will get a chance to get it wet soon. I can hardly wait.

Both the 5D and the D200 are both great cameras. The thing that tipped my hand towards the 5D was the superior high ISO noise performance. It really is amazing. Since underwater photography always seems to be light starved (at least around here), this is a big deal. Another way of saying the same thing is that the dynamic range of the 5D is substantially wider. The D200 body is less expensive, but by the time you consider the cost of your entire photographic setup (Body + Lenses + Housing + Ports + Strobes + Cables + focus lights + ...) the difference between the two ends up being only around 10%

Of course once you have an investment in lenses, the equation changes. Nikon and Canon shooters rarely cross the great divide. It simply costs too much to do so.

I love my 5D and have been blown away with the topside images I have taken with it. That being said, the two things I miss are the lack of an internal focus assist light and flash. It means that I always have to lug around my extneral flash, but the images are better for it. Neither of these make any difference underwater.

by the time you consider the cost of your entire photographic setup (Body + Lenses + Housing + Ports + Strobes + Cables + focus lights + ...) the difference between the two ends up being only around 10%

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point Steve. I also think if you are predominantly planning to shoot underwater you should also think about investing in a housing with top class ergonomics.

Judging by my inbox, I have seen a lot of people saying "I love my new 5D/D200... but I do find the housing badly balanced and hard to use". There is more to getting good underwater pictures than the sensor in your camera. It is not just a case of buying the best camera you can afford and then cutting corners on lenses, lighting and the housing.

Alex

Hi,

If I can give my personal experience. I've recently switched from Nikon to Canon and I've bought a 5D. I am very happy with the camera but I do not find any housing that has a good ergonomics as normally nikon housings have. I used Aquatica, Subal and Hugyfot with Nikon cameras in the past and all had excelent ergonomics (other manufacturers also have very good designs but I've never tried). Today none of those manufacturers, in my opinion, have good ergonomics on canon housings. With no one of thoses brands housings for the 5D I can reach easily the main comand dials without removing my right hand of the handle.

The only housing with an acceptable ergonomics for the 5D is the Seacam, but it is very expensive and the dealera in my country has not a good service, so I still haven't take a decision about the housing for my camera but if there no another better option I will go for the Seacam . I am very happy with the quality of the 5D, but If I knew that before now I'll be shooting with a D200.

That's just a personal opinion

jordi

Good point Steve. I also think if you are predominantly planning to shoot underwater you should also think about investing in a housing with top class ergonomics.

 

Judging by my inbox, I have seen a lot of people saying "I love my new 5D/D200... but I do find the housing badly balanced and hard to use". There is more to getting good underwater pictures than the sensor in your camera. It is not just a case of buying the best camera you can afford and then cutting corners on lenses, lighting and the housing. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course, this is much easier said than done. It is not like there are dive stores on every corner with multiple housings for each camera. In my case the only two housings for the 5D I could physically get my hands on were the Aquatica and a Sea & Sea and this involved hours of driving. Fortunately Goleta is near enough to LA to make this possible, but for a lot of people it just isn't feasible to do so. What is worse I wasn't able to dive either before I made my decision. Much of my the housing decision was based on reviews I read on the net.

You also raise the good point of how to tune your system to improve the balance. I have a buddy who shoots a lot of underwater video and he tells me that it is common to move weights around inside the housing to better balance it. I know that some people wrap their arms or ports with neoprene to adjust the bouyacy, but I was wondering if anyone else has other tips on how to do this. Perhaps this should be a new thread?

You also raise the good point of how to tune your system to improve the balance.  I have a buddy who shoots a lot of underwater video and he tells me that it is common to move weights around inside the housing to better balance it.  I know that some people wrap their arms or ports with neoprene to adjust the bouyacy, but I was wondering if anyone else has other tips on how to do this.  Perhaps this should be a new thread?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

have a look here http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/james-wisem...-collar-review/ james created a bouyancy device for his housing, it's good reading...

/paul