What dive qualification?

Hey Davichin,

If reef safety comes before diver safety, do you inform your buddies of your priorities before diving?

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what I meant is that if someone decides to take a camera down there he/she has to be able to dive with the camera completely comfortable. If taking a camera makes you dive on different way (in order to be safe), and that way is dangerous for the reef, then you should not dive with a camera. Some people (without camera) don´t have the need to get as close to the reef to enjoy it. Then they get a camera, get too close to the reef and in order not to hit themselves they grab on to anything. Or in a drift dive they try to glide close to reef to get a picture and then it´s too close and there goes a coral...

Two Words come to mind first - Aerobic Fitness........

I see people at all the places I go dive with c-cards out the wazoo who can barely even swim. Weight lifters who get out of breath in 20 yards.......Plus your average American who has taken care of everything in life except their health.....

Then by contrast I see slightly rotund (that would be people who never touch their BC down to 75' or so of tropical water and could push a IMAX camera system within inches of the reef to get a shot and never harm the coral. (Sometimes me, I ain't perfect

I had a young fit guy on my trip last week who did his FIRST salt water dive on Saturday, and Monday he was diving with Tiger Sharks, chasing dolphins, etc. By Tuesday he was using his buddy's second housing with a DVD burning camcorder. Very steady after receiving a bit of "real world" coaching on proper weighting, swimming smoothly and shooting.

I believe it comes down to time in the water plus some regular body stressing exercise preparing you to be a better UW photographer. Plus getting rid of all the extra crap people seem to load themselves up with these days......

In 36 years I have yet to see a single REAL regulator failure. LOTS of people failures, but no reg that actually STOPPED giving air. Yet I still see folks try and dive with 2, 3 or more back ups in 50' of tropical water No wonder they can't control themselves gtting close to the reef.

Sorry for the rant, just one person's view....

Get out there more!

dhaas

BSAC Advanced diver / Advanced nitrox / My fave blended mixes are: Mixed nuts bombay mix and pick and mix

Dive safe

DeanB

I forgot who asked before but, yes according to my buddy the B.S.A.C are still a viable diving club. "The best training in the world" His words...

Interesting topic but no one has mentioned the one skill I feel is most necessary: self-rescue

Whether or not we want to admit it as soon as we take a camera underwater we are no longer diving with a "helpful" buddy, nor are we as a photog a suitable buddy for others.

I am continually amazed with the boats who insist upon pairing divers up with folks unknown to them simply for the convenience of the dive operator. I no more want to be responsible for someone than I want them to be responsible for me. Will this person be able to help me should I need it? Will they panic and grab my regulator out of my mouth (why I have a 2M hose and a second reg around me neck)

Self-rescue and UW problem solving skills come only with experience. Not just UW experience but life experience too.

I find this dissing of certs amusing (and I was one of them). Clearly there are yahoos with lots of certs and experts with only open water, but there is usually a pretty strong correlation between certs and dive experience. My point is that usually experienced divers usually have lots of certs and vice versa. It just isn't a perfect correlation.

I find it amusing though that you can get a AOW card with something like 11 dives. I didn't feel the need to get an AOW card until I went to a dive resort and because I didn't have one they made me go through a 60ft checkout dive before the would let me dive to recreational limits. It makes perfect sense from their perspective. When I came back home I got my AOW just to cut through the BS in the future. It was a little pejorative since I had to do an "official" night dive with an instructor even though I had been night diving with friends once a week for the previous year.

On the other hand, PADI has some pretty amusing cards. I think you can actually get a card as a PADI "manta ray diver" or a PADI "manatee diver"! Ka ching!

The reason the cert agencies are getting bashed is that they have a reputation for certifying anyone if they have the money. I taught diving for 20 plus years and the hardest part of my job was taking their money then failing them. Sometimes I would refund half the money and excuse them half way through the course. Why? Because I swore that I would never develop a diver and certify them for the sake of money. I have a clear conscience. I even got reprimanded by PADI because they found out that I was intentionally tangling my students in kelp and teaching them to free themselves. PADI's response was to have them read page 38 in the PADI basic diver manual. A lot of good that will do when the diver is dangling in kelp dead because their instructor did not teach them how to deal with the very environment for which they were diving. Should they whip out their book at 30 feet and read page 38, "how to untangle yourself from kelp."

In my years of diving I have seen so many unqualified divers that are certified "advanced" or higher that it makes me puke. One time a diver went from basic certification (4 lousy O/W dives) right into advance certification and died on his "advanced" night dive. He was found tangled in kelp and had panicked and drowned. I don't give a shit what level you are, good, common sense, practice and earning your wings is the way to go before you seek the next level of discomfort and build your skillset there. Someone said here that "self rescue" was not mentioned. I bundle self rescue with solo diving as I mentioned in my previous post and I agree that self resuce is a mandatory skill set, even if you are buddy diving (does anyone still do that? ). If you can take care of yourself and your camera without sacrificing your diving skill level and application of skills you are ready to shoot pics. It's the yahoos who think they are qualified via what their C-card says, "divemaster" or "advanced", who I worry about being on my cattle boat and ruininig my dive day when they embolize or drown. We as instructors need to inform our students that advanced certification does not qualify you as an advanced diver.

I could keep going and I have a lot more horror stories related to this subject and will save them for another time.

Here's a short list of what I think it means to be "qualified" no matter what your card says.

1) Actually having dived in the ocean (or big lakes) with waves, surface chop, currents, etc.) I don't count 50-1,000 in a quarry as real diving, and I live in Ohio (!!!!!) where we sometimes go there to practice, instructors do training or to try out a new camera / lens, etc.

2) Able to find the damn anchor (leads to the boat, folks.)

3) Able to manage your gas and come back for safety stop / deco plus some spare PSI / BAR for emergency.

4) Buoyancy control no matter what suit, environment or conditions.

5) Able to swim around and / or still take your mask off underwater and not panic. I say this because I'm convinced this is the single greatest initial cause of panic in new and experienced divers I've seen in all my years. As long as you have gas and your reg works (see my previous post) you should be able to get out alive.

6) Being smart enough to "say when" as in drinking, etc. Not very many of us are getting paid to be in the water. We're doing it for fun

I am a retired PADI instructor, formerly YMCA instructor and believe their educational system when followed is good. But I still see WAAAYYY too many instructors I wouldn't even dive with! I've been there wearing my red badge of courage and thinking I know it all. Somehow I survived to be a smarter, more cautious diver.....

The skills above are somethign that take more than 11, or 50 or whatever number of dives gradually building on experience. I'm not sure following a regimented program of progressive certs is the best way anymore. Dive Clubs used to do this years ago. But with liability concerns plus other dilemmas this has gone by the wayside (at least in my area.)

Heck, what do I know

dhaas

Right on, Dave!

5) Able to swim around and / or still take your mask off underwater and not panic. I say this because I'm convinced this is the single greatest initial cause of panic in new and experienced divers I've seen in all my years.

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Best example of this is years back when I was doing my instructor exam, one of the candidates took out her mask underwater, panicked and bolted to the surface. Amazingly, she did get her instructor badge that day :glare:

Im Padi Adv O/W. I started to use a housed JVC camcorder on my final dive of open water certification! Gave me motion sickness watching the footage back.

Proceeded to the Similan Islands with my camcorder and completed my first qualified dive there at Elephant Head, 30m!

Got my advanced in Sharm after 14 dives and tried my partners MX10.

Finally took the plunge and bought a DX-D70 kit after 28 dives.

Definately a question of experience rather than qualification.

I often think of diving like driving a car, you only really start to learn once you have passed your test. When you have then passed, to gain experience, you don't drive round a carpark, you get onto the busy roads, try the motorway, maybe drive abroad. Then you become a good driver!

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

You gotta practise a lot!

Those participating in this thread would probably really enjoy a book I have just finished. 'Deep Survival.... Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why' by Laurence Gonzales

"Right on, Dave! "

and right on Joe!

I am the proud owner of a piece of plastic that calls me AOW certified. As I stated earlier, I was rushed through a resort course and felt that I learned....very little. I think both my wife and I are humble enough to realize that we're still new to this sport and anything that makes you anxious should be left for another day. I think knowing your personal limits and diving within those limits will keep you safe, happy and enthusiastic for your sport.

All that should come of your training, with that attitude, is safety and fun. Be safe.

BSAC Ocean Diver

BSAC Sports Diver

PADI Enriched Air Diver (Nitrox)

Started shooting with an underwater camera at around 50 dives.....up to about 90 dives now.

I witnessed something funny a couple of months ago.

We had just boarded a Red Sea liveaboard and the dive guides were going through the paperwork with each of us. C Card, log books, waiver, etc...

One member of our party (a very eminent underwater photographer whom I'll refer to as Petra to keep her anonymity) produced an SSI (I think) card recognising something like 5,000 logged dives. Unfortunately for Petra, the card wasn't a certification card per se since it didn't show any level of qualification. And guess what, the dive guide refused to accept the card because it wasn't an official proof of certification !

Good thing Petra had another card in her wallet otherwise she would probably have been stuck on deck all week while we were playing with her Magic Filters

HI,

Is this the same Petra who had a buddy called Alexa?????

I was also on the same Red Sea livaboard,

Andy

Yer - that was the same trip that I had to convince them that a TriMix card and 2.5K dives covered an 'Entry Level minimum requirement'....

Or I too was playing on deck !......

They were just a bit enthusiastic.

Paul C

I find this dissing of certs amusing (and I was one of them). Clearly there are yahoos with lots of certs and experts with only open water, but there is usually a pretty strong correlation between certs and dive experience. My point is that usually experienced divers usually have lots of certs and vice versa. It just isn't a perfect correlation.

Exactly, and while there is a correlation between having lots of dives and being a good diver, it's far from perfecr. I've dived with people who've been at it for 20 years and 2k+ dives who are absolutely horrible. Why? Because they don't care I guess, but the point stands. A more experienced diver is more likely to be a better diver, but all experience means necessarily is that they've successfully completed that number of dives, and not died. Congrats. Often divers seem to get more stuck in their ways as time goes on, with the attitude of 'well, it hasn't killed me yet, so I must be doing it right'.

Certs in of themself can be meaningless to categorise whether someone is a 'good diver' or not, but some certs do mean something. A dir cert means that someone has good buoyancy. An IANTD tech cert means they're probably pretty capable to that level of depth. Depth can be an issue with UWP, and just because someone has 2k+ dives under their belt it doesn't mean squat as to their ability to safely navigate dives beyond the narcosis/single tank zone.

You can definitely learn outside of certs, but at the very least a cert sets a baseline minimum for skills someone is supposed to have, more than someone telling me (not showing me a logbook) that they have x number of dives.

So what do I think an UWPer should have? The minimum cert to do whatever it is they want to do, and lots of practice to make them better than that

FWIW I have CCR Adv Tmx, PADI OWSI, CDAA Cave.

I do tend to carry a BSAC 3rd class plastic card which was issued in 1983 - on the back it shows equivalence to CMAS** which seems to have satisfied everyone that I've shown it to - a minimum qualification, and one which does show I've been diving for some years. It proves nothing more though!