Video rigs for "hobbyists" vs "pros"

A discussion in the FX7/V1 thread brought up some very interesting points that I thought it warranted a separate topic.

We hear about the latest and greatest cameras every 6mths from manufacturers and the activity it creates around the forum (The Sony A1/HC1 thread was by far the most popular thread ever for Wetpixel Video forum). A few members started wondering if the A1 was worth the extra $$ for an assign button for manual WB.

Then recently, the FX7 vs V1 debate brought along progressive scan vs interlaced and the merits of shooting with at 1080P. Is the V1 worth the extra $1300 for prog scan and all the features?

The point is that people have to first discover what they are shooting and which camera fits the budget they have for it. If a 24/25/30P camera went for $1500, there'd be no debate. Unfortunately features considered to be "pro" have a high diminishing return ratio with respects to cost.

The issue is further convoluted by the blurring of the hobbyist vs pro line. Broadcast companies frequently buy material from non-pro sources for their programming. Even an entire program shot by a non-pro(complete with VERY shakey camera work) have made it onto Discovery. With the advent of 24 hr TV, broadcast channels are short on budget and supply of material.

So feel free to discuss this very interesting topic and let us know where you stand.

Dru, if someone listens real close to what you're saying they may get the message. Most uw shooters are basically hobbiests and not professionals who make a living at this. Yet, it is the bigger, better and badder syndrome that hits many. Thus, one really needs to ask themselves whether they really need the very best out there. If all they will do is make some videos to show to their local clubs or enter a competition here or there, then they would be better off financially to just get a decent cam and not worry if the next one out has a control or two more than theirs. I don't know anyone in Howard Hall's league and yet I have never asked him to borrow his IMAX for the day hoping that I'd wake up tomorrow and consider myself his equal. (Tho I wish I were) There are so many great HDV cams out there now, my message is that if you have bought the HC-1 or 3, be happy with it. Yes, there are better, but do you need it?

Steve B)

Well the big question is what are you shooting for? Then you choose the camera and housing to fit your usage, budget, britch size etc.

As for hobbyists, if manufacturers depended on professionals only, it'd be selling 30% of what they are now. Hobbyists account for a big portion of the market. Best example is NickJ and RonRosa. Neither are working u/w professionals but they are certainly discerning individuals who want good looking stuff. I believe it's called headroom, whereby you buy for what you need but better so that there is space for growth, juste en cas.

You're all right. And Dru, thanks for saving me the embarrassment of actually letting my new thread get posted early this morning...=) I was in a minor panic.

I had a long debate with myself last night and most of the afternoon and then, suddenly, it hit me: stick with your original plan. If I keep waiting for something better to come around, it will, and I'll never upgrade. Plus, I'll never get further professionally. I kept saying to myself, "But Howard Hall advertises his stock HD collection is in 24p."

And then, again, it hit me - I'm not Howard f*cking Hall. Steve, you're right: I've got working coming my way but I don't need to budget for an Imax camera. Dru, you're also right: when I think about it, I rarely get asked for anything wet in 24p - only once that I can think of in 3 years - but I routinely get asked if I will be shooting in HD. So for my money, the choice is clear.

I won't be shooting theatrical productions with 7-figure budgets in the distant future but I am about to seal the deal on a year's worth of HDV work. Not only do I not have the demand for 24p that would necessitate waiting a bit longer, I don't have the time. The gigs are now, the 24p craze - if it ever happens to us underwater shooters - is down the road.

Okay. I can breathe now. =)

I don't understand some comments. Why wouldn't you want the best system available in the price range that you can afford? If new kit is going to become available in a couple of months that will fit someone's requirements better than anything that's currently available then why wouldn't they wait for it to come out? If someone buys something that in their opinion they are not happy with then why wouldn't they want to make a change? Most people can't afford to buy a new system every year, so it's kind of a duff point, but I'm sure that you get my drift.

Just because someone is a 'hobbyist' does it mean that they shouldn't be allowed to use a pro system if that's what they want? Some footage shot by hobbyists is as good if not better than much of the 'pro' stuff I've seen in the past. Because they don't do everything just for the sole reason of making money does that mean that they don't get almost endless enjoyment out of what they are doing, or that they would automatically be happy with something less than what a pro would expect?

People are people. Some are still happy driving an 80's car, while others absolutely need the latest most up to date model. I'm currently using a PC that I built 5 years ago and I've managed to keep it going with a bit of love and attention, while others would shake their heads in despair if they didn't upgrade theirs every 6 months. Why does anyone think that it would be any different in this particular field?

I'm very firmly entrenched in the hobbyist camp. I'd love to do uw filming for a living, but it would never ever get even remotely close to paying the bills. I have a basic system, but occasionally and often with a bit of luck I manage to get some really nice footage. On a couple of occasions I've even sold some stuff. It's been used for DVD's, websites and even recently for broadcast TV.

I want to upgrade to HD, but I want a system that can meet as many of my requirements as possible. Because I'm a hobbyist and not a pro does that mean that I shouldn't even be participating in this thread in the first place?

Cheers, Simon

I think the comments have been pretty open minded so far. Yeah I am a hobbyist too, but the pros here recognize my desire for quality.

Dru even gave me props, "Hobbyists account for a big portion of the market. Best example is NickJ and RonRosa. Neither are working u/w professionals but they are certainly discerning individuals who want good looking stuff. "

As far as the V1 and 24p, I myself have stated I don't think I will appreciated the difference to justify the price increase. I liken this to those who don't desire access to MWB. I've posted MWB examples on other boards. There are still plenty of hobbyists that see the difference, but don't appreciate it enough to spend the money on a camcorder and housing to access MWB.

I don't really see anyone suggesting that hobbyists don't belong here or shouldn't buy the best they can afford.

Ah ha! Fascinating to say the least. Dare we admit to having less than top-shelf (or bottom-shelf, where all the big heavy lenses are) equipment, as if this makes us somehow less of an image maker?

In my humble experience, the most important things are

>being there

>having the "eye" to see an image

Yes, some may need a particular format to meet the market, but then, that's "professional" and not "hobby"...

For example, my wife wants to start shooting U/W video. After all due consideration we'll probabally get her a L&M Stingray Sport for our dinky little Sony HC21, instead of investing heavily into quality.

Yes, yes, the flat front port isn't the best optics, even with a 0.7x on the camera, but I am certain the housing will outlive the camera (a year old and out of production already!), and a new camcorder will drop right in. And in the meantime, she'll actually be generating footage.

All the best, James

PeaceDog....If we all kept waiting for the next best thing then we would never buy anything as a 'next best thing' is always around the corner. Its just as bad for computer systems. I will buy the very best Mac there is and in 5 months it is at the bottom of their totem pole. Dru is 100% correct when he says to buy something with a bit of head room, but remember that as technology goes, the headroom soom becomes a back room. I guess all I meant is that one should buy the best they can for their needs, interests and budget and not beat themselves over the head because someone else buys something better that just came out. There is nothing worse than buyer's remorse. Then again,there is, never buying anything because something new might be released the next month, and the next month after that, and that and that. The days of the Sony DCR-VX1000 are gone. That cam was at the top of the heap for 3 years at least but the market has simply changed.

Now that I think of it, I think we are all, in some way, agreeing with eachother but we're just coming at it from different angles and from different paths.

Steve B)

Dru even gave me props, "Hobbyists account for a big portion of the market. Best example is NickJ and RonRosa. Neither are working u/w professionals but they are certainly discerning individuals who want good looking stuff. "

Sorry that won't happen again. I don't usually give props to anyone... against my nature.

Hah, and my ego was just getting big enough I was thinking of turning pro.

Now that I think of it, I think we are all, in some way, agreeing with each other but we're just coming at it from different angles and from different paths.

Steve B)

Bada boom, bada bing, Steve. We all agree. Buy what you can afford and then go and shoot your balls off.

I'm feeling the same sting with the Apple stuff. My PowerBook - top of the line last year - is all but obsolete. Of course, sometimes I wonder if we're all just being easily manipulated into believing that our toys - whatever they may look like - are unusable. If they didn't make us feel inadequate, we wouldn't buy more stuff, would we? Food for thought.

Drew, we video guys need a collective conscience on this board. Please go back to not giving props. B)

I want to upgrade to HD, but I want a system that can meet as many of my requirements as possible. Because I'm a hobbyist and not a pro does that mean that I shouldn't even be participating in this thread in the first place?

Wait, you're a hobbyist? And you're picky and discerning??? And yes you're right hobbyists must post while standing on their heads to qualify as pros in this forum. Otherwise you're not allowed to participate in this thread. Please go sell the wife and kids and get a real system.

Dog, so what you're really saying is I'm naggy like a grandma?!? <_<

or be a kept man like Drew and spend the lady's money on stuff for yourself...

So I am definitely in the category of 'enthusiastic amateur' (and possibly a little obsessive compulsive). I have a very tolerant wife who is OK with me spending money on cameras and dive trips rather than cars or jewelry - lucky huh? Well she enjoys this stuff too, and so far I've been reasonably successful in the corporate software world to be able to indulge a little.

I absolutely cannot justify owning an FX1 and professional Light and Motion housing and lights, and a professional editing studio other than loving videoing wildlife u/w and wanting the best experience I can afford. Others go on skiing holidays and invest in property

I have wasted money buying 'compromise' equipment and have invariably ended up spending more in the long run. I'd point to my recent flirtation with the 'pro' A1, which is a lovely little cam, it just takes a bleeding edge field trial or two to determine that it is not suited for general u/w work.

See our website for other high level insights! But I have learned so much from being a member of WP (mainly as a lurker) and also on LAFCPUG and KenStone's site. Also, the cameraderie, virtual and otherwise, stemming from this hobby is just excellent, and drives me to do even better. Will I sell the occasional clip or author the occasional commercial DVD? Sure, but boy am I glad I don't need to do this to pay for lunch. The pro's on this site are awesome, really!

We seem once again to be having a debate agreeing with each other ...

All points taken, what do you want from your cam, pro non pro, trying to be pro, not really bothered to be pro, have a pro's money but couldn't careless about being pro, haven't got a pro's money but want a pro's camera etc...

If you want to be taken seriously then the man needs a serious camera.... Not really.

A lot of people I've met have been more impressed with passion, tolerance, adaptability keeness and raw talent than the size of your CCD's or your pixel count.

But if you want to play with the big boys, you need big boys toys, i'm sorry to say.

Have I wasted money on my little baby the A1, I still do not think so..I've impressed some impressive people with my two babies A1 and TRV950..Not "Pro's" cams I know but what I could afford at the time. I know it could have been more impressive with a better cam, but hey, thats being skint for ya...Work with what you've got build confidence and blossom.

If you find out to late that you have spent a fortune on gear and have no talent then I'm sorry..But i'm available to by second hand gear 24/7..

Just agreeing with everyone I think.

Now wheres my big red..

Dive safe

DeanB

My 2cents:

Buy conservatively on your very first uw cam set up. Decide how passoinate you are about the pursuit, how far you think you can go with it, and how it may rank in your future priorities. When your first cam set up reaches the extent of its capabilities (be careful here, much of the time the limits are not the cam but the shooter until you have been at this awhile) start planning you next uw cam set up. If you are passionate and see a big future, consider it as an investment much like buying a house. Buy up and give yourself lots of growing room. Hold off on all the extras (fancy lenses, etc) until you spend time with the new rig underwater. Advancing your skills and overcomming experience based challenges is highly rewarding. Running into technical walls that block your progression is incredibly frustrating. Finally, wallet is the ultimate tie-breaker. But like Nick said, are you spending on new cars, ski vacations, other toys or your uw video?

Shawn

It's amazing how a few missed B) can change the context of a post.

I only meant to post a mini rant last time, not a full blown one! oppps I mean bah whatever!

What I was basically attempting to say was that there are a hell of a lot of very tallented 'hobbyists' out there who often produce footage as good as the pros do and why shouldn't anyone who pleases and can afford it use pro level equipment.

I don't think it came across quite like that, but hey that's the internet for you!

Oh yeah and guys I really really really can't sell the wife or kids ok???!!??

Cheers, Simon

Simon, I have to question your hobbyist standing. Hobbyists by nature would rather have gear than kids or wives, it is the geek in them. By choosing your family over gear, that puts you in the professional realm of actually seeing it as a job.

Cheers Drew

Now my girlfriend has got idea's...

No more "wait until I've got myself established..Wait until i'm earning...Wait until the next Halleys comet"...

I've told her your not a pro, just a stirring old git who's trying to get people in the family way so they cannot afford to buy top gear and go travelling alone...She said "good on him"

Oh well, she's calling me from the bedroom..I hope its another spider..

Dive safe

DeanB

Dean it's not my fault that you can't come up with better excuses to "kill spiders" and have autonomy to slay video dragons on the side. Keep working on it and make sure your spider slayings are kept in plastic til you do.

The funny thing is that hobbyist HD cameras pretty much have lots of limitations compared to the DV generation. I suspect there will be more 1500-2400 range cameras in the coming months. Actually I know!