NCUPS Beach Dive Photo Competition goes digital

I've just got email from the NCUPS board that the NCUPS Beach Dive Photo Competition will include a digital category this year.

http://www.ncups.org/bdpc2002.htm

It's a one day contest. The contestants pick up a marked roll of film in the morning and bring back the exposed film before closing. They do the processing and let the contestants pick the ones to enter for judging. I think the only other rule is that no aquatic vehicles are permitted.

They are soliciting ideas on how to enforce similar limitations on a digital contest. I think they may be flexible on the number of shots, but they will definitely want to be sure the photos are taken there on that day with no photoshop manipulations.

Any suggestions? How are other digital shootouts run?

Herb,

Too cool!

I'll put some thought into this one and post a response later on.

The key here is to mimic the "they will do the film processing and let the entrants select the images" How to "mirror" that with digital? Hmm...

Cheers

James

Easy: Give em the memory card straight from the camera. It will take them less time than processing slides to download and sharpen/Contrast adj. at max TIFF

Not so easy. Here are some things to consider:

• What about people who shoot RAW?

Every camera has a different resolution. Do my 6 megapixel images compete w/ your 3 megapixel images?

In-camera sharpening is different on every camera. A D100 shot will lose to an S2 shot because the D100 shot looks "soft" right out of the camera. That's because the S2 applies some sharpening.

In-camera saturation control is different on every camera. Photos straight out of a consumer camera will look a lot more "snappy" then shots from a DSLR which doesn't bump up the saturation.

All of these questions/issues can be resolved, but they need to be addressed by the rules. Leave no stone un-turned! :-)

Cheers

James

Easy: Give em the memory card straight from the camera. It will take them less time than processing slides to download and sharpen/Contrast adj. at max TIFF

It may be too easy. I can plug my camera into my pc and write anything I want on it.

Maybe some amount of trust will have to be assumed. It's really tough to implement a scheme that's hack proof.

Even flim is not hack proof. I considered entering the contest last year, before they had digital. I was going to take their film, load it in my old SLR and take some photos of lion fish and clown fish on my monitor and send it in. I had it all worked out. I was going to enter the dive location as Breakwater, a local beach, enter by the pier and kick southwest for 7000 miles.

Excuse my sad brain it's still early.

If the memory cards are taken from each entrant the images can be down loaded by the judges representatives to suit each cameras collecting format and software - Adjusted by able inidividuals nominated by the judges and burnt on to CD ROM as TIFF's. Or each entrant can do this themselves with a judge looking on. Herb's right - Anyone can write anything back into a card.

The photographer can then choose the images he wants to submit from these.

The camera type is not and should not really be an issue here afterall it's the same in the film catagory... Someone with a top class SLR is going to get better results than someone using an MX10 because of the higher quality exposure and shutter system as well as superior optics. Everyone walks into the competition knowing that they may have to beat someone with a camera system costing 10x more. This is the fun of it,

and more often than not they do too - Why is this?

With digital this SLR advantage is not so great over supposed 'consumer cam's' because the optics are tailored to the chips, and the exposure systems are state of the art and the camera sorts out certain aspects the DSLR doesn't. Just sharper optics & more pixels.

At the end of the day it's the best image that wins, or at least should. Entered by the most observent, capable and creative individual on that particular day.

I think there is also a digital photo shoot out in Monterey. Perhaps run by Backscatter??. It might be a good idea to check into what their rules are. My thought is that cropping, levels, hue and satutation, noise - dust and scratches, and USM are a part of taking a picture with a digital camera.

Hi Herb,

I've thought about this a lot and I see that you have too. You've also got some excellent feedback here.

My read on the "digital contest" is that there are two approaches:

Hard Line Approach:

• All files must be shot as JPEG. Set your camera up to yield the best looking shot, whether you need agressive sharpening, high color saturation, whatever. Dial it in there on the camera, or choose a camera that gives you the results you want "out of the box." This is a photography contest, not a Photoshop contest!

Use the technique that you listed on the other board. When the contest is convened, the judges will give out a "secret code" that must be embedded in everyone's EXIF data - which in this example is an arbitrary date, since most cameras allow you to set this.

Entries can be shot at the highest resolution, but the judges will project the entries using a digital projector or a laptop. So, give the option for the judges to batch resize all the photos to 1024 x 768 - the max resolution of most projectors these days. This will truly "level the playing field" and I speak from experience w/ the HUPS contest. At 1024 x 768, an Olympus 3040 shot can beat an S2.

Then there is the moderate approach (this is the one used by HUPS):

• You have a day to go out and get some good digital photos folks. Only photos taken today and tagged with today's date will be accepted. If you want to spend some of your day using your computer to work on your shots, that is fine, however, you will have to follow these rules:

The content of the photo may not be changed or augmented.

Cropping, resizing, adjusting color, contrast, levels, and sharpening is allowed.

Your maximum submission size is 1024 x 768 so plan accordingly.

As a member of _____ Underwater Photo Society, as part of your membership, you agreed to abide by club guidelines. Part of these guidelines state that you will adhere to the rules for photo contests. Keep this in mind when working on your entry.

I hope this has been of some use to you Herb. Please keep me/us updated on which way NCUPS decides to go. I think the idea of a one day digital shore diving shootout is a GREAT idea. I hope the Kona folks do this too. Please drop me a line if I can be of further help. I have helped with 2 HUPS digital contests so far and am planning the one for next month now.

For your reference, here are the HUPS digital contest rules:

http://www.hups.org/contestr.htm

Cheers

James

Thanks for your help. Here's my reply to the NCUPS board attached at the bottom.

Please let me know if you have any other suggestions.

I hope I can attend their meeting and see what developes.

Thanks for the update Herb. I wish you and NCUPS all the best of luck for this contest.

Cheers

James

What if you had to submit a pre - enhanced file with EXIF info along with the acceptably enhanced file for each shot. The cameras that shoot raw, could be submitted in the raw format along with the converted one. If there was suspicion that an image had been improperly enhanced, they could have them reproduce the enhanced version in front of them for verification.

I think the limits could and should be within what can be done in film processing. I assume that only one image per category could be submitted.

The contest rules and entry form are now posted at:

http://ncups.org/bdpc2003home.htm

Digital is elgible to win the best of show!

Cool! Can you tell us more about the "digital image selection form" Herb? What is it?

Cheers

James

They're going have you drop off your memeory card with all you shots for the day before 4PM, then use this form to select the 5 shots you want to enter, which category if there's more than one, and if you want it rotated.

This is a great topic, as UBCPS has been debating the digital evolution as well.

For a one day or one dive shootout, couldn't you provide participants with flash cards that have been numbered and preformatted? Low capacity cards aren't too expensive and can be reused time after time. This might keep big chip cameras in line as they would have to reduce image size to keep from filling the cards. The official would know the cards went into the hands of the competitors empty, and they could then reformat if necessary when installing into their cameras.

After the dive day, the official could collect the numbered cards and burn to CD. Maybe the competitors would have to select 5-10 images and delete the rest.

As for image sharpening, etc., that could be chalked up to differences between different film cameras too - just part of the deal.

For a one day or one dive shootout, couldn't you provide participants with flash cards that have been numbered and preformatted?  Low capacity cards aren't too expensive and can be reused time after time.  This might keep big chip cameras in line as they would have to reduce image size to keep from filling the cards.  The official would know the cards went into the hands of the competitors empty, and they could then reformat if necessary when installing into their cameras.

There's a whole zoo of card types: smartmedia, Compactflash, XD, memory stick, it's really not practical. Also, doing this also doesn't prevent people with camera's that can take multiple cards from doing whatever they want to do on one and writing the results on the one to be turned in. The other can do something similar by writing their shot on a computer between dives and reading the entries back in.

It looks like NCUPS is still hashing out the details of the rules for the digital part of the contest, and I've been drafted as their unofficial consultant. Some trouble maker name Eric sent them email asking for claification of the rule for post processing of images and the issues with raw files. That question got forward to me, and here's my response to the committee working on this.

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It's a tough call. I'll try to layout the background and give a couple

of suggestions.

First the formats:

Raw: As the name suggests, this is the raw sensor data straight from the

camera with no processing. It preserves all the recorded image information.

It's not suitable for viewing directly. Before an image can be view,

choices of white balance, sharpness, and contrast has to be made.

Jpeg: This is the standard for viewable images. If you choose to shoot in

this mode. The camera use your settings to convert the

sensor data to a jpeg file. The process is not reversible, you can't

change the settings for a photo you had taken, which you can do if you

had recorded it in raw format. Some adjustment is still possible after

jpeg images are loaded into photoshop, but some of the range is lost.

Current technology: All the SLR's and high end consumer cameras released

in the last year or so will have the raw output option. For this contest,

I think there will be a significant number of people with cameras that

do not, but I expect that to fall sharply beginning next year and almost

disappear the year after that.

In summary, raw files allow adjustment of white balance, sharpness, and

contrast after the shot to a greater extend than is possible for jpeg

images, but processing is needed to have a viewable image. This is

the part that gets tricky in running a photo contest. Where do you

draw the line?

If you allow images to be load onto photoshop for the adjustments and

then have them written back for entry, then none of the other rules

are enforceable. You are taking the word of the photographer that the

adjustments are within the rules. It'll be really tempting to crop a little

and make some of the back scatter go away, and I don't think these changes

are detectable. One way this can be made to work is to have the entrants

submit the raw file and the adjusted file. This way you can verify if the

adjustments are within limits. You definitely will not have time to

check all the entries, but if you just check the winners, this may be

manageable. You'll need a computer with photoshop and their raw converter

plug-in, which I believe can now convert the raw formats of all the major

camera makers. If you go this rout, require all the people shooting raw

format to drop off their original card, the one they took the shots with,

by 4PM, and their 5 entries on another card by 5PM.

The simpler thing to do is to allow no out of camera adjustments. Some

cameras can record in raw mode and do the conversions afterwards with

adjustable settings. I don't know what the range of functions of the

various cameras out there are.

Herb

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I'd like your comments and suggestions. keep in mind that the contest organizers are operating under tight time and resource contraints. More specifically, I'd like to know what some of the other cameras can do to converter raw to jpeg. I'd be happy if they adopt my second suggestion and allow only in camera processing, since the Olympus 5050 can convert raw to jpeg with white balance, contrast, sharpness adjustments and crop.

I'd like your comments and suggestions. keep in mind that the contest organizers are operating under tight time and resource contraints. More specifically, I'd like to know what some of the other cameras can do to converter raw to jpeg. I'd be happy if they adopt my second suggestion and allow only in camera processing, since the Olympus 5050 can convert raw to jpeg with white balance, contrast, sharpness adjustments and crop.

So you're already aware your second suggestion creates an advantage for users of some cameras AND you hope to take advantage of it. I imagine they would prefer advice on how to level the playing field, not load it in your favor.

So you're already aware your second suggestion creates an advantage for users of some cameras AND you hope to take advantage of it. I imagine they would prefer advice on how to level the playing field, not load it in your favor.

I made the suggestion with full disclosure of how my camera works. I actually don't know if other cameras can do this. Is this feature uncommon? I'm trying to find out. If I find that it is uncommon, I'll relay that information in a follow up message.

The other thing you should understand is that my first suggestion was to just limit it to jpeg. Since they asked for other suggestions, I didn't repeat myself.

Of course, allowing raw file create an advantage for people with cameras with that feature. There's no easy answer.

I imagine post-processing RAW images in-camera is uncommon. I also have a 5050, but the other RAW-capable cameras I have won't do it (as far as I know).

Their approach to film is OK for film but doesn't translate very well to digital as you know. I agree with your comment that allowing RAW files favors RAW-capable cameras but I think it's OK. For example, film shooters accept 35mm slide film as the requirement even though it favors certain cameras and excludes others (medium format). I know, .01% big whoop, but the analogy is valid. I think it's regrettable to adopt rules that force contestants to use a workflow that they otherwise wouldn't use. Unfortunately, that's a requirement here, so if contestants choose to enter knowing they have to alter their technique, then is requiring JPEG so bad really?

I think that contests, both video and still, like to concentrate on what you do as a photographer underwater and minimize everything you could do afterward. With video I find it absurd since raw footage is not the desired output, but it's commonly done anyway. With film, it's not very limiting. Digital is more like video than film in that respect, but I wouldn't count on film shooters understanding that point. Although we may feel like one arm's being tied behind our backs, we may need to accept that.

Assuming the emphasis is on underwater technique only, there will be some advantage given to digital-specific skills that may otherwise be unimportant to a RAW shooter. Specifically, white balance control, strobe color control and potentially filter use could be advantages. If you find this acceptable, then limiting processing to in-camera should be OK. Requiring JPEG should also be OK, but you could accept RAW with the stipulation that the conversion will be done in batch, by the contest officials, using predetermined techniques for each camera, and using the in-camera defaults. That way, a photographer has the best possible data to produce a superior image later if he desires.

I lean toward digital contests being the equivalent of "creative" only, but that's not practical here. I hope this didn't ramble too much.