L & M vs Gates reliability HC3

I have been looking at housings for a Sony HC3 or HC7 (they will be coming I'm sure). My goal is to be compact with a Zoom port that will go macro to as much wide angle as possible. Over the years on many dive boats I have alway admired the cosmetic appearance of the silver housings from Monterey but unfortunately people almost always have found some way to have problems with the electronics. I don't know if this has somehow changed recently and now this is an uncommon problem or not. I would appreciate hearing people's recent experience regarding the reliability of these housings. And how many L&M divers travel with spare electronic parts.

Hi,

IMHO it doesn't matter how reliable an electronic control / device is, it's just a matter of when it will fail instead of if. It stands to reason. I have heard so many stories, all you have to do is search through the postings here to find them, of pistol grips crapping out, controls failing etc. I am manual, fully manual with Gates and feel much more at ease knowing that I can stand on, kick, leave out to face the elements and generally abuse my housing (not that I do any of those things mind you) and still have it working like clockwork in the long run. For me, a no brainer.

Cheers,

Mark.

There is no one perfect housing but the Gates housings are known for their durability and reliability. They are heavy as heck though both topside and in the water and with the airlines lowering their weight allowances so dramatically as of late, it is something to seriously consider.

Steve B)

My L&M Stingray II housing had lots and lots of problems but actually reliability of the electronics themselves was not one of them, and that's over a number of years (except of course when salt water met the electronics in the light battery pods twice).

My newer Bluefin FX1 has done 100 or so dives and there are no reliability problems so far, touch wood, and I haven't heard of anyone else having electronics problems. But as Mark says, it will happen eventually. I have the Bluefin field service kit which includes the main PCBs. I don't take them on my routine trips here but I probably should. For special trips overseas I take them.

Now then, my Gates VX2000 housing has done 1000+ dives and has been super-reliable. But it does have quite a lot of galvanic corrosion under the latches on the rear half (whereas the L&M Stingray has no corrosion). This has gone beyond what I would call "surface corrosion" (see attached pic) and would definitely affect the resale value. Gates told me that to stop it is just a case of tightening up the zinc anode underneath, but I've kept this tight ever since and the corrosion has continued. Having said that the housing continues to give great service.

If I was designing a housing all the controls would be manual, and if my life depended on getting the shots then I'd take a Gates, but for me there were bigger design issues than electronic vs manual when I chose my last housing.

Steve, you got any corrosion on your Gates?

Nick, I have had several Gates housings over the years and have seen some corrosion on most all of them eventually, however, none as bad as yours seem to be. I haven't been in the water too much lately and don't have that many dives on the Gates housing I have now so there really isn't any as yet. I believe I will be moving away from the Gates fold and to L & M soon.

Steve B)

We have had, to my knowledge, no failures from any video housing we've sold during the John Larkin as CTO era at Light & Motion. We've sold a couple...

Your L&M housing can occasionally be a cruel mistress, but I could never go back to manual controls. There's something about having them at your fingertips while keeping the animal right in frame that I couldn't give up. In my opinion, the odds of an electronic failure far outweigh the ease of use and handling.

Of course, I'm about to drop my Bluefin into 36-degree water on what will be a 36-degree day tomorrow. I may have a slightly different opinion. I hope not. B)

I believe I will be moving away from the Gates fold and to L & M soon.

Steve B)

So the Arthritis romours are true?? HAHAHAHAHA!!! Couldn't resist. Whats the reason for your housing choice shift Steve? Ease of use?

Hope all is well. Working very busy at the mo so been real quiet on the boards. Getting some amazing stuff with the Zee. Baitballs, mating aggregations being slaughtered by sharks and other predators etc......all good stuff.

Just launched a new web site: www.4koceanstock.com (check out the blog for daily updates from Palau, when I go diving that is) in preparations for adopting RED. My head hurts from the learning but continuing to cram for the shift. Should be fun.

Take care buddy,

Mark.

Ryan is John Larkin the new engineering manager that I've heard about? My old career was design engineering and I am impressed by the general engineering quality of the Bluefin. Now I hope he goes to work on the light battery pods which have been the Achilles heel of both my LMI housings.

Nice website Mark! Very professional looking. Your blog makes me yearn to get back to Blue Corner. Good luck with "Symphony". Can't wait to see some footage or even frame grabs from the RED.

Hi Nick,

I'll share info / footage and stills regarding RED as and when it all happens.

Cheers,

Mark.

Hi Nick-

http://uwimaging.com/news/john_larkin.htm

John designed the Bluefin A1, HC3, FX1, and Titan D200. I suspect he is too busy with things like 16:9 hd monitors to work on battery pods at this time...

Mark - Looked at your website. Very nice. If you're still playing around with that white fileter lashup, I bought some of that "super" tape and if you'd like some for experimentation I'd be glad to mail some over there. (Wish we had gone back to Palau this year instead of Tahiti.)

For what it's worth, I'm happy to report that my Bluefin performed flawlessly on both dives yesterday, at 80' in 39-degree water.

Whatever quirks the L&M gear may have from time to time, yesterday's experience was another example of why I find those issues insignificant. Performance when I needed it - simple as that.

Hi Pablo,

FYI I am no longer really working with the expodisc. I have gone back to using the SWP44 wide lens on a daily basis and have also changed my whole approach to even using the CC filter.

I'm now only ever really using the filter down to 10m. After that I go straight WB through the cam with a new slate I have made from 1/8", almost translucent, white plastic bastardized onto the SWP44's protective plastic cover.

Made the decision after looking at footage and seeing that the Z1 is not that great in lower light and most of the good diving here in Palau is early morning or late afternoon. Looking through the filter the Z has to lose part of an fstop or more which creates noise in anything less than perfect conditions. If anything needs color I'll add that in post, downrezzing to SD so no long render times for the dailies, less noise on the image at the same time.

My points are purely from my own critique on my footage.

Cheers,

Mark.

P.S Got a new set of Squid 250's on the way from the guys at H2o Photo Pros and am planning a mad macro session in PI and Indo this summer for about 2 months with achromatic diopters on the gates (+3.5 and +2). Really looking forward to seeing how that goes and sharing that here too.

IMHO it doesn't matter how reliable an electronic control / device is, it's just a matter of when it will fail instead of if. It stands to reason.

An interesting assertion! I'd like to know more about the "reason" that it stands to. Sounds like the Luddite doctrine of the 19th century...

Lots of electronic devices last more than their useful lifetime without failing. Of course, if you mistreat something, then you will have problems, whether it is electronic or not.

None of my underwater electronic devices have ever failed (touch wood) including my L&M housing which has been through some tough diving conditions, but always carefully treated...

Grant you that you do need to treat them more carefully, but that it is small price to pay for the functionality and convenience.

Regards

Peter

Your L&M housing can occasionally be a cruel mistress, but I could never go back to manual controls. There's something about having them at your fingertips while keeping the animal right in frame that I couldn't give up. In my opinion, the odds of an electronic failure far outweigh the ease of use and handling.

After 2 years with an L&M Mako, I baulked at forking out a big pile of cash for the Bluefin for my new HC3. I bought a much cheaper mechanical housing. One dive trip and 15 dives later, I am regretting my decision. The mechanical housing is now up on ebay and I have my fingers crossed that Ryan can get my new L&M Bluefin here to me before my next dive trip.

You can sum it up in one word, convenience. Which sounds a bit frivolous.

But that one word contains a lot of serious implications. For example, last week I was on a dive in the South Andaman sea at Eight Mile Rocks. I was cutting some tape of a moray eel, when my buddy signalled a devil ray (the main objective of that dive) going overhead. As you know, devil rays are fast and this one was moving quickly. The water was full of plankton, risking a focus hunting problem for the longer distance devil ray shot. I needed to quickly change focus to infinity and get the camera pointed in the right direction within a second or two. I am sure that, with an L&M housing, I would have been able to thumb the "far focus" button out to infinity and have the housing pointing up at the passing ray. With the mechanical housing, by the time I had switched to manual focus, set the focus to infinity and started taping again, the ray was already moving away.

The other issue is the monitor. With the mechanical housing, I had two options. Either jam the housing against my face mask and squint through the tiny viewfinder or peer around the side of the housing into the mirror reflecting the LCD monitor. Neither of these are any good for subjects that are not directly in front of your face. Overhead shots, underhang shots, narrow crevices and gliding drifts require guesswork or contortionism.

So, back to L&M for me, slightly wiser, somewhat poorer...

Regards

Peter

Hi Pablo,

FYI I am no longer really working with the expodisc. I have gone back to using the SWP44 wide lens on a daily basis and have also changed my whole approach to even using the CC filter.

 

I'm now only ever really using the filter down to 10m. After that I go straight WB through the cam with a new slate I have made from 1/8", almost translucent, white plastic bastardized onto the SWP44's protective plastic cover.

 

P.S Got a new set of Squid 250's on the way from the guys at H2o Photo Pros and am planning a mad macro session in PI and Indo this summer for about 2 months with achromatic diopters on the gates (+3.5 and +2). Really looking forward to seeing how that goes and sharing that here too.

Mark

At what depth do you find you hit the limit of the Z1 WB correction? I found the limit of correction to be around 15m for the PD170 and about 30m with a filter, more if the viz and sunlight was excellent.

With the century optics diopters +3.5, you'll find that you'll lose a bit of edge sharpness (especially zoomed in). Stacking them should get you a pygmy seahorse full frame but turn on the OIS and use a tripod.

Lots of electronic devices last more than their useful lifetime without failing. Of course, if you mistreat something, then you will have problems, whether it is electronic or not.

 

None of my underwater electronic devices have ever failed (touch wood) including my L&M housing which has been through some tough diving conditions, but always carefully treated...

 

Grant you that you do need to treat them more carefully, but that it is small price to pay for the functionality and convenience.

 

Regards

Peter

Uh oh... another brewing electronic vs mechanical debate.

Realistically, electronics will fail, that's why they have a MTBF spec and also a maintenance schedule as a preventative measure. There is no denying that.

There are many ways to design electronics which can lengthen the life of the boards. Some manufacturers seal the electronics boards in enclosures, to avoid corrosion causing humidity or even accidently saltwater splash. Circuit boards are also now sealed with a coating so that there's an air tight barrier protecting the circuit boards. Placing them high up in the housing, so in the event of a flood, the housing circuits avoid being fried temporarily.

With mechanical controls, obviously once they are tuned to the camera, the failure rate is lower. However some controls can cause abnormal wear on the controls on the camera by mechanical controls (eg rocker switch wear etc).

Many who go on location to shoot can't be bothered to bring spare control grips or boards etc. If they need to fix something quickly, a spare o-ring and pliers usually fix the problem with a mechanical housing.

With the mechanical housing, by the time I had switched to manual focus, set the focus to infinity and started taping again, the ray was already moving away.

 

The other issue is the monitor. With the mechanical housing, I had two options. Either jam the housing against my face mask and squint through the tiny viewfinder or peer around the side of the housing into the mirror reflecting the LCD monitor. Neither of these are any good for subjects that are not directly in front of your face. Overhead shots, underhang shots, narrow crevices and gliding drifts require guesswork or contortionism.

Sure electronic housings have the convenience of having a few crucial controls at the finger tips. But also consider the camera. Some cameras have an infinity setting which can be switched by a mechanical control at the flick of a finger. The smaller consumer cameras don't have as many features and an electronic housing may be more appropriate for basic functions.

But trying to access shutter/wb/exposure etc etc with electronic is impossible. So the best housings are a mix of both electronics and mechanicals. I remember I'd forgotten to replace the battery in my grip for my sea&sea PD170 housing once and the electronic grip died. But because I had manual controls for focus and zoom rings as well as wb, all I had to do was change the tape, hit record and go dive and shoot. If it were all electronic, I'd have been stuck with one setting the whole dive.

An external monitor can be added to all housings with an extra port, regardless of control configuration. It's all a matter of more $$$.

So to answer the original poster's question of reliability of housings. There's always a cost benefit analysis. With mechanical, you have better reliability but less convenience. With the gates, you may also benefit from the SWP25 lens from Fathom Imaging, I haven't been following the compatibility chart so you may want to check on that.

L&M/Amphibico have similar housings, with Amphibico having the built-in monitor back and L&M with the external. I know it's tough to have choices. I always say decide what you want first then choose the best rig your budget can buy.

An interesting assertion! I'd like to know more about the "reason" that it stands to. Sounds like the Luddite doctrine of the 19th century...

 

None of my underwater electronic devices have ever failed (touch wood) including my L&M housing which has been through some tough diving conditions, but always carefully treated.

Hi Peter,

If its not from the mistreatment of a housing rig (I used a Sony VX1000 for 10 years with no problems or failures) then irrespective of how you care for something, electrics will fail eventually. You can wrap your gear up in cotton wool but those bumps in the road are going to send small vibrations through the circuit boards loosening those weak solder points. Its all just a matter of time.

Why do you need to touch wood on the well being of your electronics if you are so adamant they won't fail.. :glare:

Hi Drew,

Shallow well lit reefs in Palau are a blast with the SWP44, nice balance on the external Expodisc, looks very nice. I have noticed that the image is significantly darkened when using the ground glass CC filter, maybe thats different with the acrylic version. Can anyone give a true fstop depreciation value when the filters are either used or not?

I have encountered difficulties with WB with the Expodisc and CC filter in place on a sunny day shooting horizontally away from the sun at depths as shallow as 10m / 33ft. My rule of thumb now is go with the expodisc balance with the CC filter only in well lit shallows to a max of 8m. After that I will switch to default exterior mode with the CC filter in place which can sometimes be a little green but easily fixed in post. I take the CC filter out of the equation after 12m irrespective of the conditions. Needless to say on overcast or dark days I shoot filterless and use lights for composition, that way I don't have to battle the sun in the shallows for kelvin supremacy.

The external Expodisc I hacked together is still sealed tight so the issue is not coming from differing sources of light when I set WB.

Thanks for the heads up on the diopters.

Cheers,

Mark.

Mark that's a very interesting approach. i.e. No MWB deeper than 8m and no CC filter deeper than 12m.

I'm taking out the CC filter with the Z1 shallower than I did with the VX2000. But I'm still getting nice shots with CC filter and MWB (not too much noise) down to say 23m in the morning/afternoon and 28m in the middle of the day.

But when things get too dark and I stop CC filter + MWB, the footage is massively different (greener/monochrome) and pretty much impossible to even get close to a match in post. So your approach of starting shallow would deal with that.

Have you quantified what dB level of gain starts to give you unacceptable noise?

Hey folks,

For all the gung-ho manual crowd...if all electronics will fail, then why do we use electronic camcorders?

-I am going back to a hand cranked film movie camera that won't ever break. It will be a bit more work but will be rock solid reliable.

-I am also going to manual lights but striking to rocks together in an upside-down buck to light a fire. It will be less bright but create a nice natural glow.

-I am also ditching my electronic dive computer and replacing it with a sun-dial and sand hourglass timer.

-Any boat i travel on will have to rely on oars and sails because electronic start engines will fail.

-Also, forget GPS, all my trips must now use a sextant and astronomical charts to locate remote dive sites. These new fangled electronic GPS things will break one day.

-I am also ditching my computer and editing software for flashcards and glue to attach my film...these modern computers will fail on you...trust me.

-Finally, i am ditching my HD set and will present all my content by performing a modern dance with carefully thought out charades. It will be in better resolution (real life) than HD and will be sure not to fail because I am not electronic.

The same argument was made against the automobile by the horse and carriage industry when the auto first appeared. "Well, what is that darn fool gonna do when that there car breaks in the middle of nowhere...gee gee". How many of us drive carriages around?

I thought i would introduce a little humor into this discussion. Bottom line: If you like manual by all means use it. If you enjoy the convenience of electronics, shoot away and feel no shame. They each have their strengths and weaknesses....so pick your poisen.

-shawn