Baiting/feeding sharks: the controversy

I came across this article on CDNN. It sets out a chronology of key shark events and also references your operation Jim (Late 1990's).

http://www.cdnn.info/special-report/sharkb...rktimeline.html

"Late 1990's - South Florida Dive Headquarters, Jim Abernethy Scuba Adventures and Shark Dive USA jump on the bandwagon with high-profile, thrill-seeker shark feeding promotion. Divers begin to notice unnatural and aggressive shark behavior near feeding sites".

What are your comments on the last sentence Jim?

Mark

It can't be JA's fault because his feeding antics are not unnatural and the sharks appreciate he knows a lot of internet links.

Guess the fishing ban didn't work eh? Enough hooks in those GH's to start a flamin sport fishin op.

Regarding the science lot maybe they should reveal where all the money goes they screw outa the world bank and what it has accomplished. Why do we need to now where they go, maybe safer if we don't.

Out here the only acheiver is doing it for free

That's a real nice avatar you got there, Mokarran.

Nice link, mark -- very informative (although obviously biased). Also interesting is the scuba forums topic on shark feeding, which is linked from the above CDNN report.

I don't believe Jim is claiming that shark behavior does not change due to feeding. After all, it is precisely because sharks come closer to divers when fed (and that people are willing to pay money for it) that the industry continues. I'll let him jump in here, though.

And Mokarran - do you have a point here, or are you just here to fan the flames? I see no productive dialog coming from your side.

Here's a link to CDNN's Special Report on Shark Feeding:

http://www.cdnn.info/special-report/sharkb.../sharkbyte.html

It has links to all of their coverage - and there is a LOT of it! As usual, it is probably smart to take media coverage with a grain of salt. I have yet to see an article be 100% accurate when I have known the "real" story behind the scenes.

I came across this article on CDNN. It sets out a chronology of key shark events and also references your operation Jim (Late 1990's).

 

http://www.cdnn.info/special-report/sharkb...rktimeline.html

 

"Late 1990's - South Florida Dive Headquarters, Jim Abernethy Scuba Adventures and Shark Dive USA jump on the bandwagon with high-profile, thrill-seeker shark feeding promotion. Divers begin to notice unnatural and aggressive shark behavior near feeding sites".

 

What are your comments on the last sentence Jim?

 

Mark

Hi Mark and others,

It is my belief that the web site cdnn.info has been put up by three commercial spearfisherman that have started a group they refer to as the "marine safety group." This name is much better for their image than the "commercial spearfisherman." (By the way this group was arrested last year for illegal fish (undersize, babies). It is public information, if you want me to produce it.) They started all the fish feeding controversy and have so far been successful in banning fish feeding in the state of Florida on the basis that it changes the sharks' behavior. No one ever said that it changes it for better or worse, only that it changes their behavior. It is clear to see from looking at the web page that the site is clearly against the Professional Association of Dive Instructors (PADI), Divers Equipment Manufacturers Association (DEMA), Divers Alert Network, Peter Hughes, Aggressor Fleet, Scuba Radio, etc, etc and of course myself and the other two Florida shark operators. The list of people they slander is longer than I can remember. On this web page are pictures taken by professional photographers without their permission, which is against the law. Unfortunately, no one so far has been able to link anyone to the site, which shows you exactly how credible it is. Who is behind the site? No one really knows. If any of you can find someone behind this site, please contact me privately. The name of the "marine safety group's" boat is "SEA KILL." Need I say any more? I have video -- which some of you have seen -- of their team shooting sharks with a hand gun, which is perfectly legal in this state, as the state does not recognize this act as changing the sharks behavior. Yes, it is true.

As to your question, "does my activity with sharks change their behavior?" Without question it changes their behavior. A boat driving overhead changes their behavior. A snorkeler swimming, changes their behavior. In fact everything we do in the water effects the behavior of almost every fish in the ocean. The question should be, "does it effect their behavior in an aggressive way that endangers my divers?" Absolutely NOT! In fact statistics show that organized shark diving is safer than bowling. But I have already been through this. Check the undisputed facts published by a credible web page (With people that actually can be contacted) at www.welovesharks.com Or better yet check the statistics on shark attacks worldwide at www.sharkattackfile.com There has not been a single accident at any shark dive in Florida that I know of. While we are on this subject of defending shark dives once again, I must say, I am still waiting for all the scientific evidence from Bob (It has only been since March 2 that I have been waiting for it) and also the name of the "good friend" victim, shark diving organization etc - from mokarran (It has only been since March 5 that I have been waiting for his "Good Friends" name), so I can check up on the truth in your statements. While you are at it, how about giving us the list of scientist that are on the payroll from the dive operators, as you said! Both of you guys were very quick to put me on the front burner, but when it came time to defending your own words, you closed up tighter than a clam shell. That makes me wonder if what you are saying is actually true. I have come forth with answers to all of your questions, because it is easy for me -- what I have said is true. The ball is in your court now! We are all waiting for you to substantiate your claims by providing evidence to what you have claimed. The truth is, sharks have been eating the same thing for 400+ million years and it is not people. If your claims were true, wouldn’t it make sense that they would eat my divers first?

My feeling are the same as Jean Michel-Cousteau, who said:

"Sharks, worldwide, are being threatened... we as humans do not appreciate their value... I have observed that people who have a personal experience with sharks come away from the interaction with a different attitude toward them. I have also observed that when they go home they share experiences with friends. It is my belief that many divers who have had controlled encounters with sharks become ambassadors and educators who speak out on behalf on sharks.... when I weigh the possible disruption of shark's normal lives by feeding them, against the benefits of creating a constituency who respect and speak out for them; I choose feeding sharks under certain conditions."

I am not asking you to agree with me. If you don’t like shark diving, please don’t go! However, if you are interested in having a debate, please substantiate your claim with facts.

I will leave you all with something to think about.

In the state of Florida under the present ruling:

It is perfectly legal to feed a shark, at the public beach on a fishing pier.

It is perfectly legal to feed a shark, if you want to catch and release it or take it home to eat.

It is perfectly legal to feed a shark, if you want to catch it to take a trophy picture and then push it in the water dead.

It is perfectly legal to feed a shark, if you want to shoot it with a gun.

But it is not legal to feed a shark if you want to view it with a mask or use it as an educational tool to help protect the species.

- Jim Abernethy

The pure conservationist seems to say that the natural earth exists best with zero intrusion and intervention by humans. Policy based on these ideals invariably goes bad because it ignores humankind as major undismissible part of the eco equation.

Locally in southern California in recent years we have lost hundreds of thousands (millions?) of acres to forest fires on National Forest recently converted to Wilderness Land. Even though the logging roads existed making fighting the fire possible, the roads were illegal to use, and in many areas the fire ran it's natural course unchecked (lightening strike). The human part of the equation (arguable of course) was drought. Yet we tied our own hands in an attempt to stay out of an equation from which we will probably NEVER escape.

I believe we have to do our best to compensate for our poor contributions to the eco equation. Thiis means that our decisions concerning the enviroment can not be the purest, but compriomises that attempt to place value in the natural wonders due to their beauty (human observed) enjoyment (human experienced) and consumption (renewable sources). Sometimes a resource can be protected successfully for one use. Sometimes it takes all three.

This is why we have national parks, this is why we still dive next to a two thousand year old live coral that we might accidently kick to pieces.

It is the poor human record and our million mistakes coupled with commercial greed that polarizes opinion, with fisherman thinking way to short term and environmentalists thinking too pure (we can't hope to get it right so lets get our hands off).

I've come to believe (I've only seen a shark once in the Carribean and from a great distance) that human mismanagement of sharks and fish populations have made sharks far scarcer than is natural (anecdotal experience of divers of 40 years ago) and that shark feeding for divers is a neccessary compromise to encourage humans to place a much wider value and perception on these creaters other than a food source that can sometimes be a human predator.

Look. Very few in the scuba industry are driven by greed. Nobody is getting filthy rich (that I know of). You've really got to have a passion for this stuff to stay in it. Shark feeding is, in my opinion, far on the beneficial side to sharks and humans. Taking the purist approach to this issue will only make it worse for sharks and divers. My 2 cents.

Dave

Good morning,

Finally located the video I was looking for last night. For those of you interested in seeing the type of people associated with the commercial spearfisherman against shark feeds - aka marine safety group - aka CDNN, watch this streaming video - http://acw.activate.net/vnetworker/sharkfeed.asx

Warning the end of the video contains a shark being killed for no reason, except stupidity. According to the Floida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commision this does not alter their behavior and is perfectly legal.

Still waiting for a reply from cybergoldfish and mokarran to provide facts for us to evaluate.

Thanks,

Jim

Um. Did that guy call the shark a "bii-aatch?"

Amigos,

Why does Jim Abernethy seems to be the "devil incarnate" when his posts on shark feeding have more credible links and information, many scientific? The people claiming shark feeding dives are "bad" haven't produced a single link to back up claims of:

* Higher incidence of shark encounters/attacks near shark feeding operations worldwide.

* The Dive Shop owner or operator supposedly killed during a shark feed.

* Evidence that conducting shark feeds always results in shark depletion due to fisherman cleaning out a known "shark haven" (they are wild animals and go where they will to hunt, eat, mate, etc.)

The positve aspects Jim mentioned that once someone sees a shark close up, respectfully for sure, they become ambassadors spreading the truth that sharks are smart enough to know humans aren't natural food.

As usual, the media only grabs minute details of any story for a public who also watch "reality" shows just to keep the killer shark myth alive. If they wanted us, they could dine any day, at any beach, all over the world.

I personally am glad this discussion has continued, so all sides can be heard.

My 2 cents,

David Haas

I do agree with you David. This thread continuing is certainly helping get all the facts out for people to see and make there own decisions as to what they feel is the best route for educating people and protecting the shark population.

Hello,

While we all wait for cybergoldfish and mokarran to substantiate their claims that shark diving is bad, by at providing us with information so we can check out their claims, I thought you might be interested in checking out what a shark attack victim noticed while she was being attacked by a shark. This can be viewed at

http://acw.activate.net/vnetworker/education2-dsl.asx

I think you might see some of the real problems with shark attacks and aggresive behavior, right where the attacks happen as this victim did!

Enjoy,

Jim Abernethy

QUOTE Guess we are lucky in Seychelles having not needed to feed sharks so that divers can see them. Thousands of divers are now coming to Seychelles to watch natural interaction between sharks of the same or different species.

Arguably the practice of feeding sharks encourages diving tourism, but what about the negative side - the angling fraternities and their soft trophies? In spots around the world fishermen often jump into the spot left by the dive boat that has just encouraged the sharks with bad bait (Bad Bait is worthless food scraps like fleshless fish bodies). After this just half a Barracuda will attract everything blindly onto a battery of hooks.

According to Scientific reports this feeding has other adverse effects on the character of sharks - Some of it bad for tourism, with sharks turning on the 'feeders' or watcher's' because scraps are not enough to pacify their artificial arrousal (Maldives, Australia & Red Sea on several occasions), another that the sharks no longer need to carry on the role of predator and carrion removers. I think these are just some of the reasons the practice is getting banned all around the world.

One thing I cannot personally get over is seeing Hammerhead sharks conned upto the surface to take bad bait just so a bunch of photographers can grab a holiday snap, or a pro get an easy shot... Maybe a necessary step?

If you want to see hammheads on natural feeding cycles go to the Red Sea, Maldives, Cocos etc. A photograph from these locations is far more valid & memorable.

The tourism angle in the protection arguement is a very valid, but if it is at the expense of affecting the shark in other ways then banning feeding after protection is warrented.

Now I was neither for or against shark feeding until I began reading these posts but from the way it is going I think you should all agree to remove this farse from the forum. It is more than obvious that the 'fors' are in communication to collaberate between postings too.

I have brought over the original statement from Cybergoldfish as its content has been twisted a little.

As far as myself and my husband can see, this is a concerned individual making a personal opinion and he is not making wild accusations or claims.

This guy has been incredibly helpful to this board and to me in particular, but now I feel he is being put in a position where he's getting put upon so you can justify your business operation. As he and someone else said people are getting bitten by feeding sharks, there was someone nipped on Elphinstone when we were there last year after they took in a fish for bate A Stupid thing to do I agree, but it happens all the time we are told and the incidents go unreported. Captains too drag fish behind the boats as they approach reefs to bring in the sharks and this is while divers are in the water already at the reef.

This is why any kind of feeding was outlawed in 1996 in the Red Sea, after environmental concern for the natural behaviour of reef sharks. Yes, it is happening still but one operator was fined for it and the captain put in jail. I suppose this can be verified by calling the Egyptian Environmental Office. The grey and silvertips go mad on Elphinstone reef if people are chucking scraps in the water, one big one swims vertically up the rope he thinks will provide him food.

Maybe carefully controled events miles from anywhere (CG states this may be necessary for protection as question) its ok but not while other water users are in any kind of potential danger from rogue sharks. And certainly not on such a regular basis that it would affect the sharks normal profile.

Now with regard to the other individual I cannot comment, but he does make several points but roughly cut if you like.

echeng. as administrator on this board you are supposed to be an unbiased moderator not someone dishing out childish remarks to try and look cool to your chosen friends. I take it from your introduction you have only been diving a year or two. This in our opinion does not qualify you or give you any right to criticise someone who has been diving for 30 odd years an ardent conservationist and lobbier for endangered creatures most of his life. I feel he doesn't have to justify anything to you. This is my opinion.

Slippery,

If people defending a posistion with data and links are being biased, that's your opinion. When someone can't back up ther claim most would agree the claim is groundless. A good discussion, even written shouldn't be taken personally, anyway.

Number of years diving versus real experience is what you raised as a benchmark. Well, Eric has paid quite a bit of dues in his short time diving by participating, observing and listening to people's opinions. (I've only met him briefly once, at DEMA last year.) I know people with 10, 20 and 30 years "diving experience" who couldn't dive controlled enough to observe real shark coming in for a look without freaking out. Does simply a number of years diving make anyone's opinion on shark interaction of any kind more valid? I think not.....

Help with all phases of underwater photography is what his forum is supposed to be about. Critters big and small, and how to portrray them to others so they can appreciate and hopefully protect them. I don't agree with Bob or others on certain underwater photography opinions, but that's OK. His experience IS valuable, and I hope he continues to contribute.

Finally, don't delude yourself to think that educational and documentary films and textbook photos don't control sequences or behaviour documented as natural. Sharks can and do locate ANY food source in the water and have been intentially and unintentially for years. Being able to see and photograph, then share these amazing animals with others simply wouldn't be possible except for a well heeled chosen few if it were not for organized shark dives. The ones I've been on over the last decade are run by people who are NUTS about sharks and prove it by donating their time, observations and sometimes images (which they could sell) to help further understanding of the species.

Just another guy's 2 cents......

David Haas

QUOTE echeng. as administrator on this board you are supposed to be an unbiased moderator not someone dishing out childish remarks to try and look cool to your chosen friends.

Why? It is our nature to biased. I believe everyone here has a right to speak their mind regardless of their position. I consider this group a well behaved class of individuals who all enjoy to dive, but each has their own views. I think to be able to discuss them on this forum while bringing up many valid points allows us to learn more about this hot topic.

Slippery,

My whole purpose of expressing the other side of this controversy was to show that things are not always as they are perceived just because some government makes a law about it, as is the shark feeding law in Florida and many other laws as well. I was not attacking your husband, only asking him to show me the evidence, he so easily spoke of that I believe makes people think that such scientific evidence exists. If it does, produce it, if it does not, very simply apologize for misleading this forum with garbage that does not exist. It is the correct thing to do, especially seeing that he is a moderator. He should not be saying misleading information, just to start a debate in my opinion. Why would I purposely attack someone I haven’t even met? This is ridiculous! I was only trying to educate people on what I feel is the truth about sharks, as I have been for many years. Constantly I run into people that try to portray this animal with the Jaws mentality. Jaws aired in 1971. I believe and it’s depiction of sharks was way off, and many others do as well, including the author. In fact more people are killed by almost every other animal on the planet, including ant’s, bats, tigers, bears, alligators, elephants, pigs, dogs, cats, rats, etc, etc. Falling coconut in the Caribbean alone account for roughly 400 deaths a year. Should we cut them all down? Do to the fact, that being consumed by a shark is man’s worst fear; some people still portray this animal in the wrong light, including the media. Most of the world believes it, which is even worse. I am not saying that they don’t bite people and sometimes it kills them. What I am saying is that it is an accident, and it very rarely ever happens. I believe the average number of people killed by sharks over the past 15 years is roughly 8 people a year. 9 people died last year in the state of Florida trying to get money out of a vending machine. Shark attacks are not a problem, only a perceived problem and the media feeds on your fears. I love sharks and that is why I am doing my best to represent them truthfully. If there is truth in your husband’s statement of having a scientific report, please share it with the forum. If their isn’t any scientific report that he spoke of, tell us, so we will look at sharks properly using the truth as our guide.

Did you know that more people are attacked and bitten in the state of New York, every single year by people, than in the whole world by sharks? On average, 1600 people are bitten by people in the state of New York alone every year. Sharks bite roughly 75 people a year. Should we stop feeding the people of New York, because of their aggressive behavior? I think not. It has nothing to do with feeding people. In my opinion, when a shark attacks a person, what really happens is the shark made a mistake, usually it is because of murky water (can’t see what it is biting) and/or the presence of some stimulus that puts sharks into a predator mode, such as the stimulus (both vibration and electrical) put out by a wounded or hooked fish. Neither of these stimulus can any human detect. I have done a great deal of research with shark scientist and experiments with these sharks in the wild.

According to the Global Shark Attack File, (public record) 90% of all shark attacks are related to some type of fishing (spear or fishing pole) This would explain why organized shark diving has such an impeccable safety record, as most of them only use dead bait which only emits a sense of smell, not enough to put sharks into the predator mode. If you looked more closely at these organized shark dives as I have, you would find that the majority of the accidents involved someone feeding the shark by hand, same as you would a dog or parrot. Lot’s of accidents happen that way to people with pets, but very very few happen with sharks, because this animal is very smart and the water is usually very clear where these shark dive exist.

In closing, I would like you, to tell your husband to relax about all this as we are only debating a controversy, nothing more. Why don’t we work together toward helping sharks for our future generations? They really need it! If you don’t like organized shark diving with bait, simply don’t attend them. No big deal! But please don’t misrepresent this beautiful animal any more.

Best Regards,

Jim Abernethy

echeng. as administrator on this board you are supposed to be an unbiased moderator not someone dishing out childish remarks to try and look cool to your chosen friends. I take it from your introduction you have only been diving a year or two. This in our opinion does not qualify you or give you any right to criticise someone who has been diving for 30 odd years an ardent conservationist and lobbier for endangered creatures most of his life. I feel he doesn't have to justify anything to you. This is my opinion.

Even though I am a moderator, I do have opinions. I try to express them as anyone else on this forum would, except that I *will* absolutely take control should people become excessively rude. I am unbiased when it comes to the right to express an opinion on the forums that I run, as long as things stay polite.

Who am I criticising again, and why don't I have the "right" to do so? I expressed an opinion because I don't think anyone can absolutely qualify the words, "absolute" nor "memorable." I value Bob's contribution to this board and have communicated that to him numerous times. You should note also that Bob is a moderator here. Does that mean that he can't be biased? Nope.

It is highly presumptuous of you to assume that I have been "diving for a year or two." You are wrong. Your bio states that you were born in 1981. Does that mean that my being 6 years older than you gives me the "right" to criticise you? I'm not sure how you are defining my "rights" here. Of course, if your bio is wrong, then my "rights" go right down the drain.

In fact more people are killed by almost every other animal on the planet, including ant’s, bats, tigers, bears, alligators, elephants, pigs, dogs, cats, rats, etc, etc. Falling coconut in the Caribbean alone account for roughly 400 deaths a year.

 

---snip---

 

Did you know that more people are attacked and bitten in the state of New York, every single year by people, than in the whole world by sharks? On average, 1600 people are bitten by people in the state of New York alone every year. Sharks bite roughly 75 people a year.

I love diving with sharks and don't consider that a particularly dangerous activity but why do people who really should know better continue to trot out these meaningless statistics? The figures would be relevant only if the same number of people were in contact with sharks as are in contact with these 'biters'. Fact is they aren't so the figures mean nothing at all.

But please don’t misrepresent this beautiful animal any more.

I mist have missed the representation here. Are you saying there are no rogue sharks or that inappropriate feeding will cause no problems?

Kevin

Eric,

I would like to suggest that you now freeze this thread. It is gererating some animosity between members and this is not good. I think this is one of those endless debates with so many divided opinions. Many opinions have now been made so I think enough is enough.

Mark

Mark - agreed. I was just about to suggest that. Topic is frozen as of now.