Do you really need all these gadgets

Hi All,

After glancing through these threads I've noticed a few peeps getting lost in techno.. If someones got the latest Sony / panny / big nads cam for 'work' purposes, then the holiday shooters and part-timers seem to get themselves in debt trying to keep up because they do not want to miss the boat. What bleeding boat.

Same with P.C's / Macs "Hey I've got the latest super computer all singing all dancing, monster quad, duo whore 1000giggy, ram a dam a ding dong, with FCp super pro extreme, sell my wife & kids to look good system".

"what do you need it for exactly"

"well I go on holiday 2-3 times a year and maybe do a few comps..But hey, whats his face who runs a dive centre on paradise beach and works for the Nat- discovery- BBC- channel has one".

"Well he bloody needs it"

Are we guilty of sending people into debt here...O.k if your loaded (bored) or getting a inheritance then fine buy shares in Microsoft / Apple..But think to yourself 'why' and 'what' realistically do I really need. Its great getting the latest gadget (we are all human) and reporting it on the forum so others go WOW !! but if you don't really need it, its one hell of a paper weight..

Just a view...Thoughts please...

Dive safe

Dean(skint, HI8, pinnacle-1)B

As an enthusiastic amateur looking to spend some of my hard earned dosh (now pension) I'm probably one of those people you are talking about Dean, so I will add my two penny worth.

Don't forget we are all basically divers. I have been a fun videographer for too many years, but only took up diving relatively late. It then seemed obvious that I now had a new environment to use for photography. It soon became clear that I was diving for the photography rather than just being a happy snapper on a dive trip.

Once you realise that, suddenly all the interest comes in getting the best filming out of your diving holiday. My wife and I do not spend our money on the latest techy dive gear, nor do we strive to dive deep and dangerous. We are happiest at 5-10m (15-30ft) bumbling along the reef just looking and photographing. That doesn't mean we are happy with a mediocre picture, quite the opposite. We photo dive every hour that our computers allow. In the days of film my wife would finish her 36-37 exposures, then fin beside me and shout "film finished" into her regulator. I then knew it was time to abort the dive so we didn't load ourselves with too much N2 and waste filming time

As I said on an earlier post video is relatively more expensive for good quality kit than still photography, so we have to be prepared for that. Hopefully we will all set ourselves realistic levels of expenditure. It would be foolish to go into the red just for a hobby.

I would argue that one difference between pro and am videographers is that the pro kit is going to get a great deal more wear and tear, and must be chosen accordingly.

Hopefully we don't post here just to impress or get a "WOW", but to be generally informative and maybe even helpful. I'm sure if we look at Wetpixel as a whole there will be many, many more enthusiasts than professionals. Also many who use the forums as a resource and never post a thing.

Us fun photographers need these forums, and pros, to guide and teach us as they have the experience that comes with the job, so please don't stop posting. Just be gentle if we seem to make basic errors or assumptions and get lost in the jargon.

Roger

Hi Roger,

Good thoughts...

This was no personal attack on anyone in particular..

It was just, last night I was jotting down on paper all the things i was thinking of purchasing and they included:

V1E (for topside) rent a housing if needed.

Monitor

Big ol light set up

Latest 32 inch HD sony screen

Latest P.C and AVID editing software

Mac pro laptop and FCP for travelling etc..

Sony xdcam ex

Jib arm

Etc...

When I actually thought to myself..Do I really need all this. It sounds great when everyone else has it..But do I really need to splash out on the bestest latest gadgets...Well...NO.

I'd be sat at home with gadgets and no footage to put on them because i cannot afford to get out of my house. Anyway most people in the 'Industry' now rent !!!

When I read of Amatuers getting spell bound by all the pro's on here and other forums !!with there super gear..Well, it worries me. I was taken in for a while by all the look what I've got. But thats human nature. Just don't go over your head until you know your abilities...

Same as the 'you shouldn't have got the A1 its useless' brigade..Well its helped me fine so far.. But It wasn't all the gears doing.

This was a discussion starter to see what people thought

As i said if you CAN afford to go shoping mad then all the power to you..Its the others who really cannot I'm worried about.

Dive safe

Dean(Just concerned )B

I do agree with much of what has been said. And I am all for encouraging people to improve their underwater imaging by developing skills rather than flexing the plastic.

But to offer a different perspective, I also think that people should be free to buy what they want. In some forums you hear the pro types criticising amateurs for buying pro gear "You're not good enough to use that camera", which I don't like.

If someone asks for advice on what system to get, tell them. But I don't like it when hobbist shooters are made to feel guilty for buying a pro camera. If someone is intelligent and successful enough in their line of business to have made their pile - then they should be allowed to buy what ever camera they want.

Also people want to have the same kit as the top guys so that they can measure themselves against the best. If you have the same camera and dive the same places and your images are not as good, you appreciate the talent of the top shooters. And if your stuff is comparable, then you know you can do it too, if you had the time and inclination.

All that said, I do agree with Dean that the "I need that because everyone else has it" mentality is harmful to the bank balance. In the still world I think that too many people spend too much on the megapixel-age of the camera, and not enough on the lenses and lighting they need to realise the shots.

Alex

Well, I am for one, who would like to have the best avalaible equipment which I can (or can not) afford.

The reason is, to try to produce as beatiful images as for example the BBC does. I guess, a still photographer has the same thougths, he/she sees the beatiful images all around the web and the printed media as well.

The main problem is - beyond the daily practice - that a still photographer can buy its state-of-the-art equipment for let's say 20 000 US - and it can be equivalent with the big names' equipment, or even better the missing part will be "only" the talent, practice and the thing which comes form above us...

Unfortunately in our small uw videography world - according to my small talk to Peter Scoones - for the same equipment we would have to spend around 200 000 US + crew+much higher travel cost (and I am not talking now about the computer hardware (not FCP but an Autodesk finishing station) and training or paying the editor/sound designer/compositing artist or what do you want... 20 000 US is enough for a prosumer gear only. The non-equipment-related things costare the same.

But, it is very hard - at least for me - to accept it without a bitter taste in the mouth (I hope my English is correct).

Anyhow, I am editing right now a short tailer - the shooting gear was only a sony HC-40 1 chip camcorder in an Ikelite housing with only one halogen light. Not a Phantom HD but I like it, since the footage is unique.

This was no personal attack on anyone in particular..

Don't worry Dean, I didn't take it personally, just there are a lot of industry guys on this forum, and I thought I would add to your discussion as an amateur.

I agree with much of what you say. It is all too easy to get carried away especially in these days of easy credit and on-line purchasing.

The latter itself brings other problems for the amateur. It is VERY difficult to get to see the gear as there are few specialist shops - so once again getting the opinions of those that use the stuff every day is very helpful.

Alex, I couldn't agree more with your comment about chasing the mega-pixels. Every few weeks there is a newer camera with more pixels, and that means a new housing etc. etc. Some of the best photo work I have seen has been on film or low pixel cameras properly composed, exposed, and using a good lens, with little or no tweaking or cropping.

Keep up the discussion guys....

Roger

You know we have two HDV setups in the cupboard now but guess what Kelly used out Whale Sharking.

The old 4.3 mini DV setup and none of the customers ever complained... and how many DVD's did she sell

I hope folks are not buying expensive stuff just because others have it. Get what you can afford and what works for you, learn to drive it the best you can and away you go.

As a hobbyist who just shelled out big time $$, you could say I fit the description.

I often defend my expensive hobbys to my friends and family, so I take no offense and don't feel attacked in any way. But I can never say "I need" as an explanation. I don't "need" any of it. I'm just a hobbyist.

I think many of us pro or hobbyist have recently spent a lot of $$ when we upgraded to HD.

I could have gone with a less expensive HD camcorder and housing, but I wanted access to the same controls I had on my TRV900. Mainly MWB, ND filter, diopters, etc..

I am also fortunate enough to afford my hobbys without going into credit card debt. I used to golf and ski a lot. Now that I do neither, my recreational time and dollars is spent on scuba and video.

I don't feel any pressure or necessity to "keep up" with what other people have, but I see it everyday in others.

I think Alex got it right. Both hobbiest and pros should have access to good information and good equipment. If you are looking to progress to more serious shooting, you need the information so you can purchase equipment that you can grow into. If you are looking to just enjoy taking videos underwater, you should feel comfortable with a more reasonable set up.

So much of discussions on this forums relate to folks who are trying to improve their filming and take it to the next level. A lot can be accomplished with skill and experience. I personally would love to see more discussion in this area. I myself have written at length about WB and related topics on this forum and other magazines.

At the same time having filmed with a variety of cams underwater, I recognize that one can improve only so far with training alone. In this field, equipment actually does play a significant role. Sensor size, lens quality, Lux rating and access to critical cam features are essential to achieving a certain level of image quality.

I have shot side but side with quaility shooters and on occasions, had them express frustration that their footage wasn't as "good" as mine. In some cases, the answer was just simply I had better equipment. Rather than become frustrated that they lack the skills (which they didn't), it was better to recognize it was simply a difference in equipment. In such case, they have the choice to accept that variance or upgrade.

In summary, the folks on this forum have the freedom to spend their hard earned cash as they feel appropriate. No one is forced to buy anything. We should all do our best to provide the best information possible when questions are asked. That being said, I would love to see more threads on technique. So much can be accomplished by understanding how light (both ambient and natural) affects your images underwater. Historically, these threads have garnered less interest however. Perhaps folks can lead the charge in rallying intest in this area?

O.k, I'm not 'Against' first time shooters buying say a red camera... Or Peter scoones buying a sony handycam.. It not a case of you shouldn't buy that 'YOU'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH'..Thats mad if I come across that way..sorry.. It was really an idea to think about your finances 'in reality' and your ambitions and your skill level. If I went out and bought a Z1 / D2X with all the trimmings because I saw these amazing sequences, pics on forums that I'd have the same results but soon after I realised it wasn't for me... I'd be gutted / bankrupt.

But hold on..That wasn't my initial query anyway.

Why do you think you need all the latest gimmicks, why not last years decent gear or the one down from the best. Why not a decent cam and a average P.C set up... I think we are (in some areas) giving the idea that if you haven't got the latest and greatest like John Doe you will be over looked by the dream companies..Not all of 'you' out there, but I do get this impression..If I do then others might. Not just posters but onlookers. If I only just joined this forum I wouldn't give the A1 a glance and would now be holding out for the Ex and so I'd have missed my train..

Obviously to some of us this is common sense but to the impressionable few..who knows.

If your a pro..yes you need the gear... Or do you

If your a holiday snapper with no ambition but a decent pay packet then buy away...

A holiday snapper with ambition and no finances don't go mad...

A fledgling filmmaker with no finances get a decent / affordable loan

Its hard to (for me) to put in words what i mean without upsetting someone, but hey, its a discussion forum

Now you bunch of ageing, flabby, bold, know it all gits.. who wants to buy a Sinclair C5..

Dive safe

DeanB

Or what Shawn says above..He's got the jist..Please Shawn be my forum translator..

Dean,

I love you commentary always

One footnote to consider, the Video forum on Wetpixel originated as a category in the "Gear Lust" forums. It has only in recent times emerged as it's own section. That alone should exlain a lot!

Secondly, the last few years have seen the video industry in a massive transition to HD. This includes folks migrating from both DV and from traditional film. In contrast to the digital photo side, the digital video side is evolving at an incredible pace. The quality gap between DV and HDV is substantial, much more so than a 6 megapixel camera vs a 10 megapixel (IMO). As such, there are so many questions and so much speculation out there. Everyone is asking, "when should I make the jump" and if so "I don't want to make the wrong decision".

So, mostly agreeing with you but providing a little background on why things are the way they are

Dean,

I think you're right on track :-)

Most people don't "need" an expensive HDV setup with all the latest bells and whistles, but everybody seems to want to jump on the HD train to be part of the comunity and because "someone-else-has-it-and-oh-my-god-did-you-see-the-quality-of-that-video?"

I consider myself a professional, in that I go out most every day and shoot U/W videos for the divers at the shops I work with - yup, I'm one of the guys that runs around boats, no NatGeo yet - and like Wags I say: nobody has ever complained about the videos shot on 1CCD MiniDV cameras .... quite the contrary.

IMHO, shooting (and diving) experience is fundamental to a good underwater video and most hobbyists don't really have enough of that (no offense to anybody!). So should you get a Z1 with an Amphibico housing or could you make do with an HC-3,5,7 in an Ikelite housing and save $$$$? I think the latter applies in most cases - and let's face it: do you really want to lug around that huge housing on your next holiday? I certainly wouldn't.

Manual controls are surely a nice thing to have, but just as certainly you can do without them. I have been shooting without MWB for almost 4 years now and although sometimes I would have liked to have it, those occasions can be counted on my fingers.

Of course, if you buy a new rig you want something state-of-the-art that will last a long time before it's actually outdated. On the other hand, the HDV market is moving at an amazing pace and there's no end in sight.

I have just gotten my A1U, just to find out that Gates has discontinued the housing and Amphibico has decided to abandon viewfinders. So I,ll just have to stick with my old housing (with simple rec/zoom/wide controls, no MWB) and I can't say that I'm unhappy with it - I,ll find ways to get around all the little quirks.

And I will still be editing on my lowly iBook G4 - which has never abandoned me - and my DVDs will still be SD and they will still be tested one by one and play anywhere.

Get equipment that really suits your needs, don't be blinded by too much advertising. Go out and shoot as much as you can. Watch other people's videos and learn from them. Try to find a new angle everyday. Soon folks will come to you and ask: "How the heck did you do that?"

have nice dives B)

If your a pro..yes you need the gear... Or do you

Dean raises another interesting point here. Which I'd like to expand with some random personal thoughts.

As a pro, I actually do want not have too much money tied up in kit. The more kit you buy the less profit you earn. Of course you run the risk that if it breaks you are screwed... but is it really going to breakdown? Are people just going for the toy factor or the ego massage of having several rigs?

Unusually, I do not even have a spare camera body. I bought my Nikon D2X not long after starting out as a full time underwater photographer. I did not have much cash - in fact the D2X + housing used up most of it. I certainly could not afford a second camera body. Luckily it never went wrong and the subal kept the water out.

That camera has now shot 67000 underwater photos, three books and countless articles. From selling the pictures I have taken with it, I have made good profit and I can now afford to buy another. But I have decided not too. The camera continues to be 100% reliable. And my trips are relatively short - and should the camera go wrong, I'd come home early if I can.

People are rarely desperately waiting for our underwater footage. This makes more financial sense to me (being poor) than having more money tied up in kit. If my camera breaks I could generally come home, fix the camera and re-book the trip for less. I guess I am time rich and money poor.

Of course if I did different types of shoots with clients breathing down my neck I would not take these chances. And if I was richer I wouldn't take the chance either. But this system works for me at this stage of my career. It also means I have never had an excess luggage charge (more profit)!

Alex

Are we guilty of sending people into debt here...O.k if your loaded (bored) or getting a inheritance then fine buy shares in Microsoft / Apple..But think to yourself 'why' and 'what' realistically do I really need. Its great getting the latest gadget (we are all human) and reporting it on the forum so others go WOW !! but if you don't really need it, its one hell of a paper weight..

Just a view...Thoughts please...

 

Dive safe

 

Dean(skint, HI8, pinnacle-1)B

Yes, you're guilty of sending me into debt! What do I do now, can I sue you, maybe send you the bill?

Actually most of us love this stuff, it's our obsession. So all the discussion in the world about do we really need it is probably not going to stop people like myself (who are not nearly as sensible as Alex) from going out and buying the latest and greatest. Hardly likely to make me a better photographer, but it sure looks cool or nerdy (depending on your perspectiv) with my Domke jacket. To paraphrase Jimmy Buffet "We are spending our money foolishly"

Interesting post mate. Here's my 2p worth.

I don't think anyone would recommend people getting into uw video for the first time to go out and buy a high end system. But there are always going to be exceptions to that. Some people are just plain and nasty rich after all and others are just plain nasty talented!

I think most of the previous posts have parts that try to sum up something that I can't either find the right words to use. In situations like that I think it's probably a good idea to use personal experiences.

I've been filming for 3 years now. When I first started I got a high end consumer cam and a mid range housing. It didn't break the bank, but it still wasn't cheap either - but then again nothing ever is cheap in this game. Since then I've had a hell of a lot of fun both filming and editing. I've been lucky enough to have sold a bit of footage here and there (mainly through web enquiries) and I've been asked to participate in filming projects that I never would have believed I would get a chance to get involved with. I've also managed to do some FOC conservation work and some of my footage has been used to augument scientific papers (keep an eye out on coming editions of New Scientist) In all that time I've been plodding along with a SD consumer cam, a mid range housing and a 6 year old PC editing system running at about the same speed as you could pick one up for £150 these days.

For the last year I've really wanted a HDV cam, but I couldn't find one that ticked all the boxes. I still have not seen one yet that I'd pay big money for, but I finally jumped into HDV last month when I bought a HC7. It's never going to be the cam of my wet dreams, so I again bought a mid range housing. It still wasn't cheap though, but to my mind it was a decent compromise. Now to edit that HDV footage I need a new PC. I've been plodding along for so long with my old PC that I decided to splash out big and buy a Pro Mac and Final Cut Studio. It cost a bloody fortune, but hopefully I'm now all set on that front for a good few years.

I still want that wet dream new cam and housing. When (if??) it ever comes out I'll hopefully be in a situation to buy it, but until then I'll save my cash.

The moral??

Well in my situation I guess I've upgraded as and when I felt that my abilities warranted it. Personally I think that's a good way to go. I'd recommend it to everyone. Would I get better footage with that top end cam? Yeah of course, but it still doesn't stop me getting some nice stuff. It may take me longer and it might take a little more dedication and perhaps skill, but that's not always a bad thing is it? People are people. You're always going to get some who want the best they can get and if they can afford it then good luck to them and I sincerely wish them the very best. There's never going to be a one size shoe fits all situation in life, let alone in this bizare and sometimes amazingly fulfilling hobby/pastime/profession that we all have a love for.

Cheers, Simon

So far this has been interesting..

From my recent query to myself that made me put this idea to you lot.

To maybe upsetting a few and putting doubts into others..

To coming full circle and hearing what I intended..

That, thank the lord no one so far is in trouble financially because of a piece of plastic with a lens on the end...Well not really in trouble..Some loaded credit cards granted and that we all are on similiar levels thought wise to the journeys ahead of us...

I went to Cancun in 1997 and thats where my diving life started.. i paid for my trip because I had the money saved. My buddy was still paying off his credit card 5-6 years later nearly trebling the original amount for the trip...Was he worried...Nah !! we had a blast..I've always been told "If you cannot afford it, you can't have it until you can"..Crikey I'd still be living at home playing on my Atari if I'd stuck to those wise words

Keep the thoughts coming...

Dive safe

DeanB

Good stuff Simon!

Like Alex, i would like to have a back up kit...but too much money to tie up. So if misfortune frowns on me while shooting, i have no fall back. Also, travel is already challenging with my current beast and any more would be rediculous!

I currently run about 3 years on a kit before upgrading (I am about 1.5 years on my current set up). This seems to align well with the pro/prosumer camcorder release cycles of 2.5-3 years. It also allows me to still get decent money on the resale of my older kit. Likewise, as the equipment ages, failure become more likely...and these gadgets are VERY expensive to repair.

So if you are in for the long haul, upgrading on a predictable and reasonable cycle makes sense from both a quality of footage and cost standpoint.

A final consideration is that all the cams/housings we discuss here (with the exception of the Red One) are by no means high end. When you start talkin HDCAM SR and custom housings where the combo's run $150K and more, then we are talking serious pro! Almost all of what i see in this forum is folks deciding between 'consumer' and 'prosumer' options. That seems like a reasonable discussion for any serious hobbiest or struggling professoinal to entertain

Point taken..but if I joined a forum with P Scoones, H Hall and B Cranston and D Allan all arguing about their latest gear I'd cry like a baby and run to mummy..

All in retrospect my dear..

Dive safe

DeanB

Point taken..but if I joined a forum with P Scoones, H Hall and B Cranston and D Allan all arguing about their latest gear I'd cry like a baby and run to mummy..

 

All in retrospect my dear..

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

May I give my shoulder to cry...????

Buying too cheap can be very expensive too. You either have to sell after the first trip and buy higher end gear at a considerable loss or, worse, you get so frustrated that you give up on what could have been a great hobby.

Bart