DSLR for freediving

After 28 years of shooting film, and another five of P+S digital cameras, I am finally thinking of jumping up to a DSLR set-up.

This set-up would be used for freediving 99% of the time. Smaller is always better, but price enters into it also. I know that Fred and Lambis have some high end systems, but they won't fit into my tight budget- there's a reason they call it free diving.

As I look to up grade I have the choice between another compact, the Sea&sea Dx-1G, or a lower end DSLR- looking at the Nikon D40 or the canon XTI. I would like a D-80, or something fancier, but I am much more concerned about the lens than the body- I want to go with a 10.5mm or something similar.

I've never owned, or even used, a canon so have no idea how it compares to the Nikon- nor am I sure what lens would be equivalent. I'm not against them, quite the opposite, i just don't know too much about them.

Housings I've looked into so far range the low end between Fantasea, which I've never used, and Ikelite- which I am familiar with. I know I need some sort of dome port to accommodate the lens I want, but am not sure about which adapter rings would work with it.

There will be no strobes as this is for Freediving- I did some 20 meter freedives with a friend old F4 a few years ago and the dual strobes where just too much of a pain in the butt to drag up and down from depth.

If you've read this far I thank you. Maybe you can help me with a couple of decisions;

1- Nikon 40 or Canon XTI?

2-Fantasea or Ikelite"

3- 10.5mm lens or something different- what, I don't know?

4- just sticking with the compacts, like the DX-1G, since they are much smaller and easier to swim?

Thanks for any input you can give me.

Jon

I would argue for #4 for freediving. Compacts are capable of amazing photos if you know what you are doing. In this case their built-in flash would be an advantage. Some of the INON domes can get you very wide and there will be less tendancy to fiddle with controls given the inherient simplicity. Not to mention cost and travel weight.

A DSLR with no strobes would be a limited system. In this case regardless of the system you go with I would suggest using a magic filter given the likely depth and without strobes--especially with a WA fisheye lens.

If you really want the additional task loading and expense and don't mind the additional drag for a modest improvement in quality, I would suggest the Nikon. Without strobes and shallow, WA would be your best bet and Canon still doesn't have a perfect WA solution. Your choices of lens would be the Nikon 10.5mm, Sigma 15mm or the Tokina 10-17mm. You can't use the Tokina with filters (easially), and with Canon, the 10-17 isn't as wide as it is on Nikon. There still is no equivelent, for the 10.5mm for Canon. Since this would be your principal lens I would go with Nikon--but not the D40 as it only focuses with AFS lenses. None of the fisheyes are AFs. I would get a D80 or a used D70 instead.

I like Ikelite as I think their port system is better than Fantasea and there are more users and upgrade options. If you do decide to upgrade to a strobe and a SCUBA tank you will love the TTL system on the Ikelite.

Since this would be your principal lens I would go with Nikon--but not the D40 as it only focuses with AFS lenses. None of the fisheyes are AFs.

Not quite true. The Sigma 10.5 FE is HSM.

See: Sigma 10.5mm FE HSM

And with a 10.5 you really can just get by with pre-focusing it and using it's extreme DOF to focus.

The Fantasea housing is quite a bit lighter and smaller than the Ike. They do have a dedicated dome port for the 10.5FE.

Jack

I'd plug the olympus E410 in olympus housing. The housing is small and comes with a hand strap, you can easily use only your right hand to hold the camera, take photos, and adjust either shutter speed or fstop with the wheel on the back. My hand is big enough that I can push a second button and switch what the wheel does and do both.

It has an internal strobe and can use it.

Body is ~$400, not sure what the housing goes for now, try reefphoto.com (site sponsor).

I don't know of any other housing as small or handholdable, or even one that comes with a hand strap. More should, it's a great way to shoot.

My "speed rig" which I use for sea lions and fast stuff or just fast swimming is one of these clear oly housings, with my 7-14mm lens and the dome port.

I mount the camera on a ULCS tray with nothing but a quick disconnect handle. I put a single ikelite ds125 strobe on the handle. I connect an ike UV manual strobe controller to the strobe, on a 3' extension cable. The controller sensor goes on the cold shoe mount on the housing, aimed at the internal strobe. The long sync cord wraps around the port cylinder, behind the dome. When I want to take a photo, I take the strobe and handle off the tray, unwrap the cord, and fire away. This way I have a nice long arm (my own) for wide angle photos, without a bunch of junk to swim around with.

the advantage of a DSLR (properly selected) is 3 stops better noise performance for available light over any Compact - ans as you realize, the ability to shoot wide-angle with a quality lens.

a Nikon D30, Canon 5D or 40D will all have lower noise at ISO 1600 than any point and shoot at 400. the Canon 1D III and Nikon D3 even better but with a significant penalty in weight, bulk, and cost. I believe the D40 and XTI are a about one stop worse in noise than the D30 and 40D, but this might not be true of the new XTI - camera and housing size are certainly better (but not much difference in housing cost)

for free diving, the choice of camera would be based on compact housings available and their control functions, including flash. if i were to use a flash for free diving i'd certainly want TTL which narrows the choices

i frankly don't understand the comment on Compacts with built-in flash unless you specialize in recording variations in backscatter

Jon - I'd look at the Olympus E-410 which is quite compact - camera is $700 at Ryans

The dedicated housing is selling at Ryans for $750 (dome port runs $980.00)

Get the 8mm fisheye and you should be all set for shooting while freediving - check out the pricing for all this at Ryan's Olympus page

I've shot Oly DSLR's - they are nice cameras and every bit as good as Canon & Nikon,.

I answered you on deeperblue - give me a shout!!!

I went to the camera store and took a look at the Canons and Nikon's last night. I walked away with some serious gear lust for the Canon D-40 and a lot more questions than answers.

The D-40 has live view screen and Canon is coming out with something called the XSI in a couple of months that will also have live view screening- but, who knows how long it will take to make a housing for it.

The Fantasea housing looks small enough, but the D-40 took a back seat to the D-80 when I learned more about the AFS lens issues and the 10.5mm. I'll have to take a look at that Olympus. I used to have a 5050 INON Dome port system that worked pretty well, given it's limitations, so Olympus might not be a bad way to go.

For freediving photography I find flash to be useless- especially when next to a whale shark or shipwreck that you'd never be able to light up to begin with. I find the live view feature much more important because it allows you to compose your shot much quicker- since you have less time than when on scuba. When shooting macro, on scuba, I used to use a dual flash system to get the most color out of the subject, but freediving is a different animal altogether.

BTW: As far as upgrading to scuba goes, I've been a scuba instructor for almost 25 years and have certifications that range from Ice diving to Advanced Trimix. I freedive because I love the sport and how it allows me to interact with fish. Scuba is for work- like salvaging a plane or something. The true up grade, in my book, is to ditch the tank and swim with the fishes.

Jon

Hi Jon,

I don't know what your financial constraints are, but if I were you I might consider a Seatool housing for a DSLR. I just purchased a Seatool housing for my Canon EOS 40D (the D40 is a Nikon, the Canon is 40D) and it is very compact. It comes with mounts for a handstrap and is designed to be used with your hand gripping the housing rather than a separate handle -- this cuts down on some of the appendages, espcially if you aren't using strobes. The Seatool housing is more expensive than the Fantasea ones or the Ikelite ones but it very robust and compact. If you don't mind getting a slightly older model, I've seen a used Canon 400D and Seatool housing advertised in the Classifieds here, I think.

Now for live view. I don't find it to be all that useful the way it is currently implemented in most cameras. The reason is that there is a long lag between pressing the shutter button (or the separate focus button) and the camera actually taking the picture. If you are doing wide angle and can manually prefocs the camera, then it is better, but if not, the lag is significant. That being said, Live View on the Olympus E-330 is designed to be more responsive so that might be something to look into, though the camera is of an older design.

Just a thought,

Mike

Thanks Mike,

I've stated to look into that E-410 from Olympus, with their own housing, and it looks pretty nice for my budget and use. My quetion with them is the dome port.

The Olympus dome port for that 8mm lens is $1,000, but I see that INON makes something similar for about 40% less. Any input on the INON dome ports? I was happy with my previous INON wide angle lens and dome adapter, but not sure how wel their domes will work on someone elses housing.

Jon

Not quite true. The Sigma 10.5 FE is HSM.

 

See: Sigma 10.5mm FE HSM

 

And with a 10.5 you really can just get by with pre-focusing it and using it's extreme DOF to focus.

 

The Fantasea housing is quite a bit lighter and smaller than the Ike. They do have a dedicated dome port for the 10.5FE.

 

Jack

Thanks Jack, I had forgotten about the Sigma. This would be a good optnion on a D40/x. It has a rear filter holder too. I wouldn't choose this on a Canon as it only goes to ~160 degrees wide vs 180 degrees on the Nikon. Still no way to get to 180 degrees on an APS-C Canon.

I like the Ikelite 8" dome port over the Fantasea. The Ikelite housing isn't as big as it looks. The handles make it wider than it really is.

Overall, in this specific instance I think the Oly with a dome port seems to make the most sense. Its small and inexpensive and it has a dedicated FE lens.

But remember without external strobes on a DSLR your shooting will be limited to available light. You can do a lot with that style, but its just one style. Macro is pretty hard to do with only available light. Most of the time yo0u will want strobes to get small apertures and better color. With some of the prosumer cameras you get most of the advantage of a DSLR and if you have to you can turn on strobes.

Now come to think of it a ringflash might not be too terrible to swim with and it could get you some good macro as well....

I'm not at all interested in macro anymore. If I ever felt the need to do some I could always drag out the film cameras and shoot a roll.

For what I want the Olympus might just do the trick. It has a hand strap to one-hand it and a live view mode for composition. With freediving everything happen much fast- especially if your holding your breath at 80'.

Does anyone have any opinions on the INON dome port over the Olympus Dome port? There's a pretty big difference in price. an 8mm lens sounds pretty good.

Jon

I'm not at all interested in macro anymore. If I ever felt the need to do some I could always drag out the film cameras and shoot a roll.

 

For what I want the Olympus might just do the trick. It has a hand strap to one-hand it and a live view mode for composition. With freediving everything happen much fast- especially if your holding your breath at 80'.

 

Does anyone have any opinions on the INON dome port over the Olympus Dome port? There's a pretty big difference in price. an 8mm lens sounds pretty good.

 

Jon

From the looks of it Jon, I personally would have no issues going with the Inon if I were in your shoes. I'm sure it does as good of a job as the Olympus one - and the savings is pretty substantial.

If you want live-view, there's only one choice in dslr's, the Olympus E-330. All the other so-called live-view implementations are not what you are used to. If you are going to use the view-finder, then go with the E-410.

I just got back from another photo store and they had the camera, but not the 8mm lens, in stock. The camera DID have live view. I'll also add that this thing is TINY. I can imagine that even in the housing it would be no bigger than my old 5050 setup.

Now it all comes down to the money.

Jon

I just got back from another photo store and they had the camera, but not the 8mm lens, in stock. The camera DID have live view.

The "live-view" on the E-410 suffers from very long shutter lag! It is the equivalent of the "mode B" live-view on the E-330.

The E-330 uses two sensors to give real time live preview in mode A.

The E-410 requires live view freeze and mirror flap - mode B; the result is very different from the c5050 you are used to.

While mode B is great for precise manual focus from a tripod, it is useless underwater.

That makes more sense- there is a live view mode but it isn't great.

Any pictures of how big your E330 system is in someones hands? I'm assuming the E-410 would be smaller.

Jon

That makes more sense- there is a live view mode but it isn't great.

 

Any pictures of how big your E330 system is in someones hands? I'm assuming the E-410 would be smaller.

 

Jon

Unfortunately, the E-330 is bigger than the E-410 - roughly 5.5 x 3 x 2.5 inches. Since you are going to shoot WA with your dslr, not having realtime liveview may not be that important to you. But, if live view is a deal breaker, then the only choice is an E-330.

be sure the high ISO noise of the Olympus is acceptable for your needs

you got me curious and i checked dpreview for noise - E410 stands up pretty well. With the availability of the very reasonably priced factory housing this looks a very nice package at a very reasonable price.

The true up grade, in my book, is to ditch the tank and swim with the fishes.

 

Jon

WORD! Heya freedive, I'm also shooting exclusively while freediving.

Here's what I find most important:

10mp (or more) small camera offering great image quality, low noise->nobrainer

large viewfinder, ergonomics and automatisation, these are very very important things while freediving (e.g. i love the autoiso the nikon d80 gives me, i love being able to dial in manual exposure compensation via the rear wheel without having to press other buttons, i love the way i can dial in flash compensation via the extra flash wheel on the ike housing).

flash: ttl, fast recycling

Here's my rig:

nikon d80

tokina 10-17mm fisheye, sharp and versatile

nikkor 18-70mm, tacksharp, good for fish/frog portraits

ike housing, best bang for the buck, i just wish ergonomy would be better

one ike ds125 flash, lots of power, full ttl support, takes only 2 seconds to recycle for another full power flash, goes fairly wide

And don't think that flash is useless/too heavy for freediving :-)

Of course scenics, available light shots are a hoot!

Here's my online portfolio, you'll find more underwater images there:

http://www.augensound.de/search.htm?search_user=PapaFly