Really Bad Light & Motion experience....

I am previous Light & Motion Stingray customer and recently bought the new Stingray HD from Paul Barnett. Upon arrival I noticed hairs and other debris on the inside of the Monitor Back screen. I emailed Paul photos and he admitted that it was unacceptable and to send the Monitor Back into him after my trip, which I did. Yesterday I received my "Serviced" Monitor Back and to my amazement not only were all the hairs and debris still there, but one of the bolts had only been threaded back in halfway.

As a Dive Professional I have always held L&M in the highest regard for producing what I thought was a top quality housing, and an impeccable reputation. However, I just don't know what to make of this, wether it's very poor and careless service, or a deliberate act to ignore the concerns of a customer and create new ones? Either way I am done with Light & Motion as I feel insulted to have sent in a service issue on a brand new housing just to have it come back in even worse condition. I emailed Paul yesterday morning and still have not heard back form him, but felt it was important to share this experience since quality post sales service is so important for something that is going underwater, without it one cannot expect to have any confidence that their housing and camera are going to perform and be safe.

I am off to another dive destination Tuesday, so after not hearing back from Paul, I disassembled and cleaned the Monitor Back myself today. It took all of 5 minutes and it's perfect now, and to think I waited weeks to get it back from L&M unfixed. The only reason I did not do it myself before was I did not want any warranty issues, but clearly Light & Motion does not have any quality standards for repair, or customer service. I still cannot believe the bolt only threaded in halfway on something I am taking down to 200 feet, makes me wonder what else is lacking.

TODD.

Not good to hear stories like that Todd.

I'm sure there is a reason.

I once had a horrible experience with a motor bike shop..turned out their apprentice with a bad attitude was having a bad day...so they sacked him.

I suspect that they have the same problems that we do at my company which is based in California... and that is that it is difficult to find "good help" that takes pride in their workmanship and willing to do the extra steps to do a job right.

Management at our firm continually has to "instruct.. remind..and impress" to our staff to do whatever is necessary and take the extra steps to do a job complete and the right way the first time. Steps that you'd think they would do on their own. This is exactly why many US manufacturing industries have lost their the business to overseas. The overseas manufacturers work force seem to better "understand" the concept of quality. I agree with Wagsy, likey the person doing the work, just wanted to "get it done and get outta there" and go to lunch...still.. not a good excuse.

The overseas manufacturers work force seem to better "understand" the concept of quality.

They have my monitor back right now for an electronics upgrade. My fingers are crossed that

they will mirror the outstanding work that Ikelite does with these matters.

I too have had some really bad Light & Motion experiences.

here is a correspondence that I had recently with Light & Motion...

I wrote,

"5 months ago I purchased a bluefin hc-3 housing. At that time I was unable

to purchase a monitor, as the external monitor was discontinued. Russ said

one would be available this past January for around $500, the company was

waiting on parts to build monitor back. Yesterday I was called at home by

Paul informing me that the monitor back that I had ordered has been

available for the past month. Well at least somebody let me know about the

monitor back. What concerns me the most is the flagrant price gouging.

$1300 more for a monitor back that ships included with the newer housings.

I realize that there is a $500 difference in price, that is understandable,

not $1300. I also realize that there other housing manufacturers. I am

saddened to think that I was once proud to own your company's equipment. I

am curious to know how your company determined this as an acceptable price.

I also wonder what others in the underwater imaging community think about

this. I welcome your response. "

here's their response...

"Have you considered the Bluefin HC9 does not include the costing of a rear

plate which contains CNC machined parts, an electronic board and custom

optics? That part cost is not burdened in the Bluefin HC9 as it was in the

Bluefin HC3. That means the Bluefin HC9 cost LESS prior to adding the

monitor back.

In addition, the Bluefin HC3 pricing was established in the fall of 2005. We

also incur rising part cost just as in every part of the world.

However, customers who purchased a Bluefin HC3 with a Compact Monitor paid

$4,498. I feel pretty good to offer this generation housing with a larger

and higher resolution monitor for $900 less at $3,599.

I'll still honor our original price to you on December 12th, 2007, of $999.

Let me know if this product is still of interest to you."

I still feel like I'm being raped by Light & Motion.

Well, yes, L&M gear is expensive and customer service with them can be a bit of a rollercoaster. Which is unfortunate as you do tend to need service quite a lot because of the amount of electronics in their products.

My personal experience is that service was pretty good in the old days with Jon Baker, and is pretty good again now that Paul Barnett seems to be doing a lot of both sales and service. At least there is a consistent contact there now, which for a long time it felt like there wasn't.

They do seem to have a problem with screws. When I received my Bluefin FX1 from them, at least half the screws were loose and one of them had actually fallen out of the door completely and was rattling around loose in the housing. Later one of the 2 screws in the top window fell out. I new regularly check all the screws for tightness.

I have alerted them to this and suggested that they use the "breakable" type of Loctite on their screws or at least do them up a bit tighter!

Every company has problems but I feel it is how they handle them that is important. I'm on my third LM housing and after being a staunch supporter for many years it will be my last. I have found their customer support to have gone down the toilet compared to years past when Jim Stoddard had fixed things right and kept me informed. As I had mentioned to Nick, my last episode with them I had ordered an HD monitor back for our Bluefin PD 100 right after DEMA last year for a Feb-Mar. delivery. After several conversations with Trish I finally e-mailed early April to see when it was coming to receive this: "I'm sorry to inform you that the new monitor back will not work on your Bluefin PD100 housing. The new monitor back uses a 10 pin cable to send the video out from the camcorder. The PD100 camcorder does not have a 10 pin jack and is not compatible with the new monitor back. The new 10 pin cable is necessary on the new camcorders and there are no other solutions for the new monitor back. I wish I had better news." I can't believe that would take months to discover but at least they could have called to let me know. Very disappointing. Our last trip to Socorros there were no less than 6 LM housings and it amazed me to hear the common horror stories with service. Very sad. John

While not defending L&M, it is important to note that inflation due to the high cost of oil has caught affected everyone. L&M, like any other company, is a business and has to make money. To maintain margins, they will raise prices.

Loose screws is a pretty important issue since many customers would assume the housing is good to go out of the box.

When stuff has been in transit, things can come loose.

It's always good to check things.

My Phenom's iris cog came loose on it's shaft after my last air travel trip.

When stuff has been in transit, things can come loose.

It's always good to check things.

 

 

Sure, and I always do check all my equipment. However, Light & Motion has an absolute responsibility to ensure their housings are complete and fully functional before leaving their facility. Again, these are underwater housings, and attention to detail is paramount. As end users we double check our o-rings, camera alignment, and dry test camera and housing function prior to diving. L&M needs to do their part so we are not wondering if our damn housing is going to fall apart underwater. When I received my "Serviced" housing back from L&M all the bolts were loose, but one was only threaded halfway. When my Stingray HD housing arrived new the first time all the bolts were tight, and made it through a flight to Provo, 12 dives, and back and were still tight. It was clearly careless service by L&M who did not properly tighten the bolts, or clean the hairs and debris out of the inside of the Monitor Back which was the whole point of me sending it in. I find it much more likely that housing parts will come loose if they were not properly tightened in the first place. My previous Stingray housing was never a problem even after years of use, but I never sent it in for service.

 

Here is the "Overview of repair" from Light & Motion regarding my Monitor Back:

"We have cleaned up the monitor back. A pressure test was run to 300 feet-PASSED. A full QC test ran and this monitor is up to specs. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

Thanks for choosing Light & Motion!!

 

Here is my take on the repair:

We ignored you request for us to clean up hairs and debris left during initial assembly of your monitor back, and check the brightness of the display. We did however leave the illusion that it was done by leaving the monitor back bolts loose. No QC test was ran and this monitor continues to be very bright, show our hairs, and only be able to make it through 1.5 dives on new Duracell batteries before rendering all viewable functionality useless. We hope that being without your new Monitor Back for nearly a month was an inconvenience, and hope you understand that we purposely sent it back to you a few days before your trip unfixed so that you would have extra stress in knowing that there is nothing further that could be done in time.

 

Don't choose Light & Motion again!!

Todd that seems pretty harsh. I think it is more indifference to repairing it correctly. The current philosophy there now seems more "if you have a problem with your current LM housing buy our latest one". That said, mistakes do happen and how they handle them will be telling. Hopefully you get some resolution. I've had to e-mail Barrett directly and he was a very helpful. Good luck. John

Has anyone from L&M ever appeared on Wetpixel like other manufacturers have?

The UWP world is so small, I think they'd make an appearance once in awhile.

I received a response from Paul Barnett of Light & Motion which I do appreciate.

He apologized, again mentioning the condition of my Monitor Back was "unacceptable". He appears to have implemented "corrective steps" "in both production and service areas" within L&M.

My response to Paul:

"Paul, I appreciate the response, although I have been quite concerned about the situation. I did resolve the problems myself since not hearing back from you, I had no choice due to the time constraints of my trip. I was able to disassemble, remove the LCD, clean both the LCD and plastic display back in a matter of minutes, it's perfect now. All bolts were loose, and as mentioned one was only threaded halfway. I obviously tightened them all down correctly when I reassembled the Monitor Back. I hope my repair will not cause any warranty issues with Light & Motion should the Monitor Back need further service. Again, I had no choice but to do the work myself as I am off to another dive trip and want my housing to operate correctly.

I am trying to pack and get ready for a 4am car to the airport tomorrow, so I will let you know how it goes on this trip with the 2900MA NIMH batteries, and will now be using a HDR-SR12 camera which I hope will produce better results with the LCD display brightness.

As you can understand I have lost confidence in Light & Motion, and should I need repair in the future I hope to regain this. I honestly feel that no attempt was made to do any repair with my Monitor Back except loosen bolts to leave the illusion of a repair. This really upsets me. You and Light & Motion have always come across as very professional, producing what I think is the best housing available. I can't say for sure that I will ever purchase another housing from Light & Motion again after this, but if I do I hope to receive the same incident free quality product that started my relationship with Light & Motion several years ago."

Todd.

This is very similar to the problems I have had with my Bluefin for the HC-7. I have had six separate failures of the system in 36 dives. My external monitor died after 3 dives, 3 of 6 lighting batteries have been bad, the charger for the external monitor was bad, and the camera tray release latch has broken 3 times. Quality control seems to be nonexistent.

I chose L&M after owning a Tetra housing that functioned flawlessly. This experience has been quite the opposite, and it will be my last with this company.

H.

I have had some different experiences with L&M i delt with jim and trish in the past and had numerous things serviced and changed to a very high standard. I do however think that L&M do not stock old parts in an attempt to force you to buy their newer gear which is annoying. I bought a remote pro monitor from the US (I am in the UK and it was cheaper for me to buy it from the states) I had changed one in the past to PAL from NTSC at a small cost. I tried to get this done but they no longer stock any of parts. Also I wanted a base plate for a mako housing which i had lost, they no longer had this item in stock rendering the housing useless as i can't mount a video camera in the housing. for people who have stuck with L&M you would think they would keep parts or have the ability to make new ones!

anyone want to buy a L&M remote pro monitor complete??

I just want to veer this thread back on topic for a second. I'm dealing with Light & Motion right now on an issue with my housing and they've been extremely helpful and even emailed me to see how the housing was performing after they did some work on it.

A famous expression that I once heard (maybe not famous - maybe my old man just told me it was someone famous - like Churchill - so I'd sit up and listen.......) and I'm gonna try to make not too much of a mess quoting it:

"To make a mistake once is a mistake, to make the same mistake twice is stupid. To make the same mistake thrice is unforgivable."

(I've probably made uncountable mistakes in that quote but hope it's forgivable???? )

This is probably why L&M customers feel so frustrated with L&M..... because they evidently aren't learning from their mistakes....!?!?!?

"biminitwist" makes a great point - that no-one is perfect and mistakes happen...

But - the true test of a company's / individual's sincerity and character HAS to be in how they handle their customers complaints / problems.... unfortunately, nowadays, sincerity SEEMS to be disappearing from the professional world and - all too often - the selfish, uncaring act of the minority (an occasional bad member of staff) to fob off a customer, has serious repercussions later on...

I once owned two L&M housings (I still do..... they work, look good, they're sturdy, reliable? mmmm...... kind of). Bought them 3 years ago and, almost immediately, decided to never buy any more L&M.... or even try contacting L&M again... (you get more help and info from these marvelous pages and people in WP world !) and to take up self-servicing.....

Here's a "Wagsy-style" bit of product-placement for you -

I got two Phenoms, a couple of years ago - one of the housings developed a "hairline crack" in the control grip. Phoned JC @ Amph, he told me to follow the online procedure for returning goods.....

I told him I had more faith in real people and was hesitant to use their automated system. He understood but told me to trust it........

I did. One week later FedEx's online tracking told me my part had been delivered and signed for 4 days previously...(!)...... I sighed and sent a polite email asking for some update on the progress....

That afternoon (well before Amph had opened their office and had a chance to reply) FedEx turned up with a package..... my new control grip!

HOOOORAH FOR AMPHIBICO and JC!!!!!

Scouring WP for feedback on housing manufactures does certainly lead to a result that tends to lean away from one particular manufacturer..... maybe us WPers are unlucky? I think not......

Chris D - I think that this is the exact point that people are trying to make here.... that some customers get a level of service that surpasses their expectations whilst others receive a level of care and attention that falls well below anybody's wildest expectations of examples of bad service.... it is up to L&M (as Mike M quite correctly points out) to have a team that is managed from the top down that instills (or tries it's very best) a sense of pride and attention to detail in their entire team..... Some companies SEEM to be STILL(!) coming across as doing the complete opposite - and then not caring when it's pointed out them!

To all slack companies out there, or owners........ read these posts and work it out once and for all.......... "Thrice is unforgivable........"

I'm gonna get off my soap-box now and go make a coffee.......

Chris

...

I think that this is the exact point that people are trying to make here.... that some customers get a level of service that surpasses their expectations whilst others receive a level of care and attention that falls well below anybody's wildest expectations of examples of bad service.... it is up to L&M (as Mike M quite correctly points out) to have a team that is managed from the top down that instills (or tries it's very best) a sense of pride and attention to detail in their entire team..... Some companies SEEM to be STILL(!) coming across as doing the complete opposite - and then not caring when it's pointed out them!

...

Chris

In defence of L&M, I have always received friendly, quick and sincere support from any of the sales, service or support staff that I have dealt with, including the current team.

My issue is more related to their product policy. They seem to obsolete products very quickly and then cease support shortly after. Not sure where in L&M this policy comes from (the top, I guess). I have, on two or three occasions received apologetic responses from the sales team for such decisions.

Regards

Peter

I have, on two or three occasions received apologetic responses from the sales team for such decisions.

 

Regards

Peter

Maybe you've also heard this one, Pete and Nick?

I've had some Thai friends and family having a dig at the Brit's, sometimes, cos we're too easy with an apology - apparently!? (I thought it was a good trait.)

But they always state (and I like this):

"It's no good saying sorry - you have to DO sorry."

Meaning: one should actually BE sorry through one's actions.... I like that - cos it is FAR too easy to throw across a quick verbal apology and expect it to be well-received..... and, to be honest, when a 50 dollar product goes wrong, or is discontinued, then sod it - a simple apology will do..... (but doesn't seem to, when my missus is getting humpy cos I haven't washed the dishes yet and am spending too much time on WP! )

but when we spend thousand of USD on some quality u/w imaging equipment, and then need some proper service or attention befitting of our HIGHLY niche product, then apologetic letters come across as mere lip service..... the original moulds are available, customer relations should be maintained at all costs... as opposed to aiming to increase profits from current customers - at the very risk of losing them.... (especially with great places like WP around..... )

"it costs 10x more to win a new customer than it does to keep a present one......"

(groans as he gets down off of his ever expanding soapbox......)

off to wash the dishes now......

Chris

Maybe you've also heard this one, Pete and Nick?

 

I've had some Thai friends and family having a dig at the Brit's, sometimes, cos we're too easy with an apology - apparently!? (I thought it was a good trait.)

 

But they always state (and I like this):

 

"It's no good saying sorry - you have to DO sorry."

 

off to wash the dishes now......

 

Chris

Chris,

Yes, Thais are amused when a Brit says "sorry", even when not at fault. Like, someone bumped into them and they still say "sorry".

And, you've got to get yourself a maid and stop washing those dishes. I've always been a big Neil Young fan and therefore respect his advice: "A Man Needs a Maid" (although not sure if he was referring to dishes).

But, back on thread, I used to think of myself as a loyal L&M customer, having bought three housings and, after the first, not even looking at competitors. But, the way they obsoleted the batteries that they sold me 2 years ago, I will look further afield at the next upgrade.

Regards

Peter