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Tape or Tapeless

Started by wagsy ·

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Tape or Tapeless

50 posts
  1. Careful Craig, you actually make sense... and this thread has lost a lot of common sense. ^_^

     

    To further your input, I also think that many people don't do the proper research into what is available in terms of technology to alleviate data loss potential and archival backups. Software data recovery of deleted files and media, enterprise 3g shock designed hard drives and a plethora of other advancements have made data storage on the road much safer. I just switched out my dead backup 4TB server to a 8TB server (which cost 40% less than the old 4TB) and it uses 40% less electricity as well (the Western Digital RE2 GPs are great for that). That's linked by eSATA to my old laptop which acts as a server to my gigabit network. If I want more speed for editing, I plug the drives in direct to the editing computer. The dead drives are demagnetized to zero data and then sent to recycle (although I do question how much is recycled). Recently I stupidly lost very important video clips I had in my home server. My backup server fortunately had them and it was just easy to download them and backup again.

    With the introduction and soon mass marketing of WORM/ROM media cards like the Sandisk, which have a shelf life of apparently 100 years, these can act like tape and then you backup to a server for insurance.

    So let's examine what sort of storage is needed from the average flash media camera:

     

    AVCHD 24mbps 32GB = approx 170mins= 2.8hrs= 11GB/h

    HDV 32GB = approx 150mins=12.8 GB/h

    DVCPRO HD 32GB= approx 40 mins=48GB/h

    XDCAM HD HQ 32GB = approx 100mins=19GB/h

     

    Let's say you have 200 hrs of clips to store. For DVCPRO HD, 9.6TB and the least 2.2TB for AVCHD. That's 3-10 1TB drives. 2x if you need backup. It's not that much if you think about it.

  2. Drew, are you sure your numbers are right for XDCam HD HQ? That's a 35 Mb/s 1440x1080 codec right? Whereas XDCam EX is a 1920 35mb/s signal.

  3. Same difference Perrone. Bandwidth is max 35mbps. I may be off buy 5 mins but it's an approximation.

  4. Same difference Perrone. Bandwidth is max 35mbps. I may be off buy 5 mins but it's an approximation.

     

     

    Actually, that's not true. Max bandwidth is in excess of 70 Mbp/s as we have empirically proven. The codec can burst quite high when required.

  5. Perrone

    The codec is a VBR 35mbps. The overrun you are talking about is when you use S/Q so it records closer to 90mbps when you shoot at say 720/24P at 60fps. However it still plays at 35mbps regardless. So the overall file size is still about the same.

    For those who care, 10 seconds at 720/24 60fps will play out as a 25 second clip. So the recording time will reflect 25 seconds on the card. It won't play back faster than 35mbps. Just as it doesn't matter if it's 1920x1080 or 720x540. It's the compression limit at the codec's playback bandwidth that matters. All that is taken into account which is why it's an approximation on recording time.

    This is for the XDCAM EX codec. On the flip side, Panasonic markets the DVCPROHD as 100mbps max bandwidth and it gets there with 720p at 60fps. So the limit really is 100mbps. Once you shoot 720/24p at 24fps, it uses only 40mbps and 30fps it's 50mbps and so on.

    Edited by Drew
  6. I think he thought he'd moved the files to HDD then recorded over the P2 cards and only later found out that he either hadn't moved the files or something had gone wrong after he moved them - I'm sure he would have recovered them if he'd be able to. Either way like I said previously format is only one of the considerations and human error is as big or a bigger factor to consider. I've personally (touch wood) never had a disasterous failure of technology, but in that time I've made plenty of screw ups myself and I defy anyone to say they haven't done the same! ^_^

     

    Cheers, Simon

  7. Well all I can say is you guys are braver than me in having your raw archive sitting on drives.

    Good luck to all that do it and enjoy carting you drives and or laptops around the place...don't drop them...and enjoy your impossible to edit in full preview, realtime AVCHD codec's on your computers if you go that way.

     

    Typing this while I'm Looking at this 3 month old laptop with it's failed harddrive in front of me here....second one this year that has come though with a failed drive :).. It's abit hard to retrieve data from bad sectors... I got most of it off but there was stuff I could not get to.

     

    Maybe 32 GIG media cards will be $5 one day like DV tapes.... :)

     

    That's it from me.... ^_^

    Edited by wagsy
  8. That's it from me.... :)

     

    So you keep saying...lol... :P

     

    ^_^:) ...

     

    Dive safe

     

    DeanB

  9. Well all I can say is you guys are braver than me in having your raw archive sitting on drives.

    Good luck to all that do it and enjoy carting you drives and or laptops around the place...don't drop them...and enjoy your impossible to edit in full preview, realtime AVCHD codec's on your computers if you :

     

    Wags

     

    I am with Drew and Craig on this one.

     

    I had a multi camera shoot using Panasonic HVX200 and made sure ahead of time that (a) the cameras were appropriate to be used for what was being shot and what was intended and (b) that the things that were needed were available.

     

    Bought a laptop along and made sure all computers that were going to be used in post had the proper/recent version of Final Cut, not one that was kind of outdated. Read up on any potential "gotchas" and purchased enough hard drives (with some overage as needed) for intial downloads and back-ups based on reading what the space requirements were. Hooked up an RTX to RAID 1 to duplicate on initial downloads immediately and it was fine. (Then used the RTX to make a duplicate for storage for another location.) Of course this was not a field type setting as on a dive trip, but goes more to the article. Work flow was alot easier than tape, processing of clips was pretty much automatic and easier than pulling tapes in and out, etc.

     

    As to the article on dv.com, like Drew said, it seems perhaps they were not fully up to speed., I am not sure when it was written, but since it refers to a prior article from September, 2007, probably it was no earlier than that date ^_^ FWIW Final Cut Studio 2 was released in April, 2007 (I assume they meant in the article they were using Final Cut Studio [1],it was not even clear if they were running the Universal Binary version of the Studio, though I am asumming they were.) Not to nitpick, but if there is going to be discussions of workflow issues and problems some of these details would help.

     

    Anyway, it does not seem they used the proper tools available to them at the time, including a tower set up for a feature film. From the pictures in the article it looks like they had a real place to set up equipment and were not trying to do this all by running a power cord out to a beach or remote island. "Data wrangling" for me took a couple of minutes. With all the cards they had, I would doubt they would shoot without breaks. Would take less than a couple of minutes to start the transfer process. To hire someone to put the cards in and undertake the transfer probably would not have cost too much.

     

    As to the issue of storage and what will happen 10-15 years from now, who knows. There is just as much chance that tape and mechanisms to play them back can be difficult to find, much like trying to buy a roll of film nowadays. Things change and it was not too long ago that Zip and Jaz drives were the be all end all and that the "holy grail" 1 Megapixel still camera was actually released. I have DV, mini-DV, Hi-8 and etc. And the video is all on hard drives ready to move over to the next storage medium that is here. It is the nature of the beast and 10 years from now it will probably be more difficult to get the source off the tapes than transfering files. Who knows, 5 years from now there will be 500 Gig CF flash cards for $100 and I can store a ton of things in the physical space of one hard drive.

     

    Anyway it took about 20-23 minutes to transfer a 32 Gig as far as I recall. This was via a FW800 port out to the RTX. Do not have the P2 cards, but have the raw files and just went back (slow Sunday :) ) to the files straight from the files on the eSata drive. It took under 10 minutes to have the raw P2 files (30+ minutes worth) ready to go for output on my tower. I did a rough and dirty workflow and the whole time to get 30 minutes in and out to a m2v and AC3 file for DVD took less than an hour, maybe it would be 8-10 hours per hour of footage if I was on my laptop and may try that later, but my guess it would less than that (And I have a two year old laptop. Newer laptops are faster and if I was shooting like they were I would do a bit of checking and would probably get a new laptop for any increase in peformance.) In other words portions of the article would similar to me saying that I ran into problems using Edius 4 a laptop while Edius 6 and a Tower would be really what should be used.

     

    As to the tape/HD issue, I probably have had more tapes go bad/get caught in heads than actual HD failure. There was one brand of HDs that I had a problem with (all purchased around the same time from same manufacturer) and it came out later that the drives had issues in general. Otherwise have been pretty darn solid except for a loose FW connection on one. And I really do not "baby" my hard drives and often can be a bit harsh with them in fact.

     

    When traveling (dive trips) they get tossed in and out of bags, bounced around and the rest (though I do not fling them in a back of a pick-up and go into the balzing sun, I think you said that was one of your failures in another post at some point :) ) Have dropped them and my laptops have gotten banged around and they keep on working (of course the computers are Macs :) )

     

    Having two (or even three) very portable hard drives seem to be easier than carrying a bunch of tapes for me, though my underwater camera is tape. It is often more difficult to find room for a stack of tapes for a 2 week trip than a place to slip in a couple of hard drives and a stack of CF cards.

     

    No system is perfect and everyone will have their own preferences and needs. That being said, I am pretty sure though my next video set up will record to hard drive format ... that Scarlet does look like it will be cool :)

     

    But as Drew said, horses for courses - if you are going to shoot something, whatever camera, know what to expect and how it will work beforehand, which includes time frames for delivery. It is all always a give and take.

     

    And you may want to dump an extra copy of your footage onto hard drives just in case :P

  10. Well you have to look at it fairly. Looks like they were trying to guerilla the project by using a review camera as well and they had a budget constraint for buying more 1 TB drives, which tells me they were on a shoestring budget.

    Still due diligence in research would've saved them a lot of hassles. They seem like they had all the software necessary but they didn't test it until they started shooting. That, as they say, was a BIG mistake! I'm surprised by their troubles with DVCPRO HD. Installing the Panasonic CMS allows FCP 6 to work with the files natively without transcoding, although it's not an official support by Apple.

    I suppose Mr Holben in the interest of writing the article would prefer it that way, but I doubt his producers liked that. ^_^

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