Canon vs Nikon (Strobes)

. Why are most of the advancements in strobe technology in favor of the Nikon users. This has always been the case even pre-digital , there always seemed to be TTL problems and less features when using Canon cameras and underwater strobes. Are the majority of underwater geeks using NIKON , or does CANON in a way restrictive in their software design ?

I am a user of both Canon and Nikon

In a nutshell, NIKONOS V, all current underwater strobe are based on the TTL protocol of the Nikonos V circuit, which as it so happen is/was the same as the post Nikon F3 35mm SLR. when the industry sort of got digital we started seeing a lot more Canon showing up and manufacturer of housing paid attention to the new trend, but and it is a big but the majority of housing manufacturer do not manufacture strobes and basically supply housing with the proper accommodating bulkhead connector for the customer strobes, unfortunately for the Canon users, Canon decided to go with a six pins connection for their TTL circuit, making the already well established Nikonos V and other 5 pins connector basically incompatible for TTL with most strobes and converter, some variation in 6 pins have come and gone but the problem persist, a new standard of connector need to be established and endorsed by the strobe manufacturer, preferably a 7 pins connectors, with no spring loaded pins or environmentally sensitive knick nacks to replace the obsolete Nikonos V. once this is done, then headways in better TTL circuitry, especially for Canon, can be developed.

BTW, why the seven pins well focus light, remote control etc are all thing that could use the extra pin.

Anyway just my recurring pipe dream

Hi Jean,

It seems to me that most of the strobe manufacturers are heading away from hard-wired bulkheads and going in the direction of fibre-optics...

Sea and Sea's latest strobes sure are an indication to that, and then include the very popular Inons and I think that you have pretty well covered the ball park.

As for housings. I think that Aquatica and Ikelite are about the only blokes on the block not offering the fibre optic ports...oh and Subal of course.

Personally, I prefer the hard-wired option. I don't thing that the variations of visual TTL are quite right yet, although the Inon system is very good...

I think that it might be a good time for you and Ike to start rattling some chains and waking up a few people and get your 7pin idea on the drawing board before it becomes a dinosaur already...

Just musings...

Bruce...

I think that fibre optics are the Japanese way, Bruce. A main factor for this is because many of the Japanese home market (see here) manufacturers prefer to use the pop-up flash on DSLRs to trigger external strobes. Which to me does not seem an ideal solution.

Alex

Geez Alex,

I get spooked when a bloke of your ability and knowledge is following me through the forum...

I nearly shit me pants hoping that you don't shoot me down...

As I said, I don't like the fibre optic option yet, but I think that the Japanese market is growing a lot quicker than everywhere else at the moment and their ideas are getting pushed down everyone's throats...

I would love to see better TTL controllers and across the board parity with the connections...

Bruce...

There is no reason, though, that a TTL to optical converter could not be made. That is, after all, what a strobe is. Inon makes one with a bulkhead mount but it neither does TTL nor is compatible with TTL converters as I understand it. If TTL were integrated it would be a great solution. I figure you could take the smallest Nikon or Canon strobe, replace the strobe tube with an LED, then house it and have a good fiber solution. I do not understand why Inon and Sea & Sea aren't doing this.

I was wondering why the Nikon "Commander" electronic unit couldn't

be included inside the housing and radio transmissions used to fire the strobes?

What happens to radio waves under the waves...

Isn't sonar some sort of electronic/radio wave...???, or am I way behind the times...

Bruce...

I was wondering why the Nikon "Commander" electronic unit couldn't

be included inside the housing and radio transmissions used to fire the strobes?

What happens to radio waves under the waves...

Isn't sonar some sort of electronic/radio wave...???, or am I way behind the times...

 

Bruce...

hehe good try, but electronic waves do not propagate well through water.. sonar is actually sound, and is the substitute for these radio waves underwater

((=

otherwise it'll be cool to have pocketwizards and all underwater.

here's a thought for having wireless strobe control: what about using a canon ST-E2 as a commander unit, and strobes that react to the IR signals?

FO is cool in its own way, but isn't a plausible choice for most pro shooters (not me!) who use canon 5Ds and 1 series bodies, because Canon has decided that people who buy pro equipment shouldn't be caught dead using the lowly pop-up flash.

I think one the things hamerping using optical triggering for TTL strobes is the preflash that is now part of iTTL and eTTL.

When TTL flash control was first brought in for film cameras, the flash reading was taken directly off the film while the shutter was open. The camera would wait until it had received enough light reflected off the film and quench the flash. This had the added benefit of setting the duration based on what was happening at the time the capture was being made rather than an estimate just before.

I can only assume that the CCD sensors don't reflect enough light so that for digital they can't take the same approach. The only alternative is to do the preflash as a sort of flash meter and use that to determine the duration of the main flash.

How do slave strobes tell the difference between the preflash and the main one? Is the number of preflashes always the same? Do different cameras use different duration or number of preflashes?

The Nikon Commander is IR, not RF. It could very well be housed and made to work with Nikon strobes. Existing fiber cables and connectors would work just fine with that setup.

Fiber optic connections are not limited to pop up flash and were around before popup flashes were even supported. Popup flash is simply a cool idea to support---it makes an SLR work much like a digicam would regarding strobe. I think the idea of using popup flash with a light guide for ring flash is incredibly cool. I want a light guide that converts my small strobe into a ring flash and is convertible underwater.

Some of Nikon's SLRs are capable of using the popup flash in commander mode. In this mode the strobe will not illuminate the subject but will control remote flashes via IR. That won't work with current UW strobes but would work with housed Nikon CLS strobes with fiber triggers (if there were any).

What I'd like to see is an UW strobe with fiber trigger and Nikon CLS protocol plus a housed commander or even a housing-integrated one. There could be a Canon one as well or perhaps a translator that allowed one system to work with both manufacturers. I consider that totally doable and we'd see it already if land-based strobe makers did underwater models as well. There are land strobes with plugin modules for a variety of wireless triggering protocols. The stuff exists already.

Problem with IR is that it's a long wavelength of light (longer than red) so it will get absorbed by seatwater much faster than red light. IR is shorter than RF waves, but it will still get absorbed pretty quick. You'd need to transmit the IR through a fiber optic cable, but I don't know how well IR works in FO cables. My guess is at the shorter end of IR (closer to red) it should transfer just as well as red light does.

IR travels just fine in water through the distances encountered between cameras, subjects and strobes. I'm sure there are limitations with distant subjects in wide angle, but I would use fiber in any case. I wouldn't expect any issue with IR and macro. IR works though fiber. Some people use undeveloped slide film to block the output of a digicam strobe while allowing remote strobes to trigger. This works because IR is passed through the film and travels effectively through the water over those short distances. Sometimes this is used in combination with a fiber pickup.

I've been using housed Nikon flashes since my first housed DSLR years ago (a D100). On top of my "wish they would make it" list is a hard-wired underwater version of the Nikon SB800 flash. It works very well in iTTL, although I do bracket shots. But a dedicated underwater version would likely be smaller and lighter.

I've been using housed Nikon flashes since my first housed DSLR years ago (a D100). On top of my "wish they would make it" list is a hard-wired underwater version of the Nikon SB800 flash. It works very well in iTTL, although I do bracket shots. But a dedicated underwater version would likely be smaller and lighter.

Hey JimmyC,

Welcome back mate... woohoo, good to hear from you!

How's the health mate?

I'm glad that you are back on the 'technical' site, coz now I can pick your brains...

Hooroo my friend,

Bruce...