DSLR thoughts please

I'm a reasonably experienced underwater photographer thinking about my next generation rig. I'm currently using an Oly5060 in an ike housing. I shoot full manual with 2 ike strobes. I also have the wide-angle Oly lens in an ike dome port. I like it a lot. It's my second generation rig. But it's going to be time to move up. Not this trip (Galapagos in 4 weeks) because it's too close and I know this rig well by now. But soon.

Here are some things I would need in a DSLR rig

Ike housing available (should be easy to satisfy) - so I can keep my strobes, arms, tray etc

live view LCD, not viewfinder

very very good optics. Capability to use a very wide lens, actual or near fisheye with right port

RAW shooting speed at least 3 frames/sec

I'm not too bothered about # of MPixels. 5-7 minimum but once you reach that level it's the lens that matters more.

I'm not too bothered about having a brand new latest and greatest of everything. I know what I want out of this move and if I could satisfy the above things with a model from 3 years ago I would be fine with that, and buy it used.

What suggestions do you have?

Thanks for your input

If you want Liveview in a dSLR then your going to be forced into the latest and greatest camera's. Liveview is a recent addition to SLR's and to the best of my knowledge, only the latest pro/prosumer grade cameras from Nikon, Canon and Olympus have it. If live view is what you wnat, I think the Canon 40D is "entry level" into the market.

Correction. Apparently many of the Olympus cameras offer liveview for a more reasonable price tag.

What's the limit on your Platinum Card? Cameras, multiple lenses, ports, misc stuff. Sounds like the jury is still out on LiveView u/w on a DSLR. Drains camera battery, not so good for those of us that use reading glasses but no prescription mask. Just got a D300 & prefer to use the camera viewfinder for macro/close subjects. Don't forget to factor in spare parts & maybe a bigger faster computer to handle all the large files.

I think the Canon 40D is "entry level" into the market.

There's a good few models out there cheaper than the 40D with live view.

Someone mentioned to me the other day that Sony have a great live-view mode. One of (if not the only) one with auto focus. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The only rapid (as in introducing no additional shutter delay vs. just shooting from a viewfinder) live-view implementations right now to my knowledge are the Sony A350 and the Olympus E330. Both use a secondary sensor to provide the screen image, placed into the optical viewfinder path. (The Sony tilts a mirror to feed the screen's sensor vs. the optical VF, the Olympus uses a porro mirror to split light off of the VF path so both are available at once, at the cost of some brightness in the optical viewfinder.)

All other live view implementations use the primary sensor only, most offering some autofocus capability but only getting "close" with a final mirror movement preceding shutter activation. Delay won't be as bad as in a point-n-shoot, but will be noticeably different than not using live-view.

Search for "jlyle" here and find some of his posts which have his website in his signature. He shoots with an E-330. I do too, but I'm brand new to photography much less UW photograpy so my shots are by no means indicative of the quality possible with the camera. I haven't seen any A350 shots posted.

Both do have Ikelite housings, and in the case of the E-330 you might even find one used. (You can also find a new or factory reconditioned camera body from somewhere like Cameta camera or Olympus direct sales via ebay in the $250 - $300 range.)

There are some rumors going around about an Olympus "E-430" that might bring back the second sensor LV mode, which was dropped in the E-410, 510, 420, and 520, but I don't know that I believe there's much truth to them just yet. Sony certainly made advances between their A300 and A350 implementations, so a better future LV might be coming from them as well. Not that I'm advising waiting...just thinking for the future in terms of if you want to update later after investing in lenses.

I'm obviously biased as an Olympus user myself. But it does seem to me like good glass is reasonably priced for the 4:3 system as well. The 14-54 lens can be had new for under $400, and there is an 8mm fisheye and in a couple months a 9-18mm rectilinear wide angle zoom coming as well (remember with 4:3 system all these focal lengths get doubled for 35mm film equivalents).

The one thing I don't know if you can get from your list is 3 shots per second RAW. Frankly strobes don't recycle that fast, unless at very low power. I've never tried multiframe shooting myself but I'm sure you can get the max continuous shooting info from somewhere like dpreview.com.

Good luck with your choice, and welcome to the madness.

Going to DSLR hhmmm, you'll want to have an understanding wife and/or bank manager though and enjoy the sensation of watching your savings dwindle as you contemplate a life on the streets.... ;-D

I'm shooting with a Nikon D300 in Ikelite housing with 2 Ikelite DS-125 strobes, ULCS floatation arms. Never bothered with liveview - its an OK feature topside if you're shooting at an odd angle, but UW its much, much simpler to shoot and review with the lovely, large LCD screen (and you can have it set up to review the histograms automatically after each shot). Rapid fire is easy..I tested this last night and the DS-125s kept up a pretty good fire rate in TTL mode. Access to key controls (shutter speed, aperture control) is straightforward so you can concentrate on spotting/composition. I should say that for macro, TTL with the D300 hasn't let me down yet. I know a lot of folks here prefer manual, but unless I'm not getting the image I want with TTL, I am happy to stay with this setup. Takes one more variable out of the equation.

Shooting RAW does help too..occasionally I have had to adjust exposure values slightly when shooting ambient light or wide angle w/ strobe - gives a tad more latitude when going for that pic that you thought was a killer, or the one off opportunity shot.

Good luck and keep us posted. Steve

Tried live view on my Nikon D300 - only once - don't go there it is not ready for 'prime time' in the water.

Paul C

Paul - it may be slightly off topic, but could be a valid issue when switching to a DSLR rig - weight in and out of the water/boyancy/handling etc.

Looks as if you have a set up close to mine. I figure all in, the housing, camera, strobes and arms weigh in at a hefty 7kg+ Do you know how negatively bouyant your set up is? First time I used mine with the 8inch dome port I ended up having to snaffle a 1kg weight from the dive boat to give me neutral bouyancy (that was with just 1 Ds-125 strobe though). I had forgotten just how bouyant a bubble of air can be!

When choosing a housing/DSLR setup, the airspace inside the housing/port combination might lead a first time UW DSLR user to think of ergonomics and ease of handling. After all the Ikelite housing for the D300 with 2 stobres is a bit of a beats to handle compared with , say a Subal or Nexus housing.

Steve

I've never personally handled a Subal or Nexus, but did got from a small Canon (A520) in an OEM housing with a single arm tray and strobe to my Oly E-330, and if anything I found the extra bulk to be easier to manage.

It's larger, sure. But the Canon housing/tray/strobe was very much negative since there's almost no enclosed air. My DSLR rig with buoyancy arms is almost perfectly neutral right now (see sig for configuration)...at safety stops on the line I just let it go (yes, I do have it tethered to a D-ring on my BCD, I'm not crazy!!) and it drifts beside me just fine. I kind of like the larger 'bulk' too, in that it seems quite naturally to have my two hands at a comfortable almost shoulder-width position to hold the handles, which really forces me to pay much more attention to body attitude and getting where I want with fins only. Sometimes I feel my whole body is pivoting around the camera as a fulcrum.

Now if I ever find myself in a really strong current, I may need to rethink all the above. Might get my chance for a bit of that this Labor Day weekend - scheduled for a 3 day trip out to the Flower Gardens, which can sometimes be kinda rippy, especially for the rig dive, although usually more so earlier in the year than this.

Sounds to me like the OP understands what he's getting into in terms of additional size, if he's shot with (by now) two different configurations with the 5050 (which isn't exactly a 'small' or light camera compared to many PnS's out there). Basically whatever DSLR you get is going to be larger than a PnS, but the buoyancy part at least is somewhat user adjustable, even if the bulk isn't. (And his desire for an Ike housing pretty much says he's set on bulk, anyway. )

Paul - it may be slightly off topic, but could be a valid issue when switching to a DSLR rig - weight in and out of the water/boyancy/handling etc.

 

Looks as if you have a set up close to mine. I figure all in, the housing, camera, strobes and arms weigh in at a hefty 7kg+ Do you know how negatively bouyant your set up is? First time I used mine with the 8inch dome port I ended up having to snaffle a 1kg weight from the dive boat to give me neutral bouyancy (that was with just 1 Ds-125 strobe though). I had forgotten just how bouyant a bubble of air can be!

 

Steve

With either one or two strobes I have yet to have a boyancy problem to be honest.

If you want a DSLR in the water then it is not going to handle like a compact however hard you try.

Having said that I did find the 8" dome and no strobes a bit positive when trying to keep up with dolphins recently - but again they were a bugger to keep amused regardless of my flapping about with the camera.

Paul C

I figure all in, the housing, camera, strobes and arms weigh in at a hefty 7kg+

I just weighed my G9 / Ike / ULCS / Dome unit / 2 x Z240's - 7 kgs. Did someone call a G9 "a compact..." ?

I would agree with those that have opined that Live View as implemented in the vast majority of DSLRs is not very useful underwater. The only possible exception is if you are doing something that allows you to prefocus manually before shooting. The Olympus E-330 may be worth a look if you can find used gear. Not the fastest autofocus in the world, but the live view is more usable for the reasons stated above.

One of my friends shoots with what I'm sure is the Olympus E330, if it is this, it has really bad shutter lag and is next to useless for top quality fish photography.

Graham:

Please be careful about passing on anecdotal evidence if you're not SURE your friend shoots with an E-330. Due to its setup there is no difference in shooting with live view A mode or without in terms of mirror movement and shutter delay. Light is split from the optical viewfinder to the display with a porro, period. There is a slower Live View mode (B) intended for tripod-based macro shooting, which would not be useful underwater.

Now if the complaint is about autofocus speed, I can understand - I've read others state that the E-330 isn't as fast as other DSLRs at autofocusing, and it does only have 3 focus zones. A focus light helps prevent hunting, but won't speed it up other than that of course.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/ ... first page of the linked review shows the internal mechanization and describes its operation. Just for completeness, here's the link to the DPreview page describing the Sony A350 liveview implementation, which is the only other one right now to use a dedicated sensor and be equally fast (although the reviewer kind of wrote like it was 'unique' as if the Oly E-330 didn't do something similar first ):

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra350/page2.asp

I do shoot with one personally, and while I'm very new to UW photography I have no problems framing fish. (I do have problems with proper light exposure and aperture selection on the fly, though. ) For that matter many PnS shooters learn how to anticipate behavior, so simply because of some shutter delay a camera doesn't automatically become 'useless', even if I thought you had the right camera in mind.

Here's a link to jlyle's website - he's been shooting way longer than I overall, and used a PnS before switching to the E-330. He doesn't seem to suffer fish butt syndrome either.

http://chemistry.csudh.edu/faculty/jim/Jim%27sWeb_Page.htm

If the live view is important for you the best option is probably the sony a300/350. They have the best live view on the market at this time. The implementation of LV for canon, nikon is OK only for non moving subjects from a tripod. Rare underwater.

The other option is the aforementioned olympus E330. The a300 is probably a better camera in every respect, simply because it's a newer model with the lattest improvements. I wouldn't buy a used camera considering the cost of the UW housing etc. You can't save much.

The sony has an advantage that you can use two camera body in the same ikelite housing. The only difference between the a300 and a350 is the sensor (10 mpixel vs 14 mpixel). The a300 is better for low natural light photos, while the a350 has a 14 megapixel sensor and it performes well at low iso for macros. But for the increased resolution you have to pay in the noise department. Above iso400 the a350 performs not so well.

You can find very good optics for sony. This is the only dslr system where you can use AF Zeiss lenses. The G-series of sony lenses have the highest quality and the easily match the canon, nikon top lenses.

The 50mm and 100mm macro lenses are also excellent and due to the sensor based stabilisation they are stabilized without additional cost of weight and money. Although the new nikon VR 105 mm macro is probably an excellent lens there are several topics here discussing the problems of housing it because of its size.

Thanks to the in-body stabilization your all lens will be stabilized without extra cost.

The only disadvantage is that you can't use the excellent tokina 10-17mm fisheye lens.

For wide angle you have the 11-16mm sony aps-c zoom (or similar specs third party lenses), or you can use the sony 16mm or the sigma 15mm fisheye.

I have the sigma version and it's quite wide even after the cropping due to the smaller sensor.

There are not so many picture here with sony cameras but the image quality is good. The a300 has practically the same sensor as the nikon d80, d200. You can have the same IQ at least from raw.

I have the a100 that has no liveview and it has only six dives behind but it can deliver good results:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21017948@N06/...7557295/detail/

You can see more above water pictures here, mainly macros:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21017948@N06/

Cheers

Marcell

I think that live view is the wrong answer, as it has to consume too much power: then you have to open the housing to change the battery more often, since housings don't (ever?) accomodate battery packs. The better answer, if you have the money, is a viewfinder with an enlarged image to facilitate focussing and composition: no power at all, and high resolution! The Inon unit is the cheapest, and looks it, but has now served me well for a year. As a 45-degree finder it has improved my macro shooting and helps me stay a little further off the reef. A live view will put your eye, and by implication, the rest of you, in an even more awkward position than a conventional viewfinder.

Tim

TD:

You just gave me an interesting idea...wonder if anyone's considered a 45 degree prism for an LCD screen? Would have some downside in bright conditions with the sun above you - usually people try to shade an LCD vs. angling it 'up' - but with a polarizer or non-glare coating it might work.

Now I'm going to go start researching...

Sorry for the hijack!

Edit - never mind. Stupid idea...if I was going to do that it would make more sense to do it off the optical VF anyway....

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/ ... first page of the linked review shows the internal mechanization and describes its operation. Just for completeness, here's the link to the DPreview page describing the Sony A350 liveview implementation, which is the only other one right now to use a dedicated sensor and be equally fast (although the reviewer kind of wrote like it was 'unique' as if the Oly E-330 didn't do something similar first ):

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra350/page2.asp

I don't like dpreview. They are biased towards canon and nikon. Olympus is clearly an underdog (sony as well). It's funny that LV was just a gadget while only olympus had it but became a must feature when canon and nikon also implemented.

I still prefer the viewfinder but sometimes the LV would be really handy.

Olympus is very innovative:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08080501...ofourthirds.asp