a question for dive instructors

always wondered what happens if a person turns up hungover, or drugged up and you as the instructor wanted to leave him/her onshore

 

cheers

The guys/girls who work in Thailand are probably the best to answer this. I have heard that you have to be able to roll a 5 skinner ( whatever that is ) before you can get your AOW certification out there. Only joking I actually gained my AOW out there.

stew

I remember a dive centre owner in Antigua (maybe you know him) who was clinically obese but a superb diver. On the other hand, last week I objected to being buddied with someone because (1) I didn't want to be the one who pulled his body out of the water (2) I would not have been able to lift him and (3) his BC was fully inflated at 10m (30ft) because he insisted on wearing so much lead.

Stew

I see!

I should have done my IDC there by the sound of it.

Whitsundays was good. But the whole 40 minute dive and 200 bar max, 50 bar back on boat thing annoyed me a bit.

cheers

Guys

he was not talking about a newbie diver

the woman was already a rescue diver so legally she did not have to do a medical to dive as she was already certified

glad to hear some of you knock back students who are "medically" fit

always wondered what happens if a person turns up hungover, or drugged up and you as the instructor wanted to leave him/her onshore

hope most of the dive shops back you on your calls

cheers

His question solicited responses from instructors. Part of the problem of this type of discussion is that there is a clear distinction between being an instructor and being an employee of a dive operation. A dive guide or a dive operation isn't necessarily an instructor or affiliated with any training agency. The concept that they can make a determination on behalf of a training agency to withdraw recognition of said agency's certification is problematic.

As for hungover or drugged up customers, as well as those deemed at risk, the instructor or non-agency affiliated dive operation has every right to refuse service. Taking it beyond the time and confines of the specific situation only works while discussing it around the dinner table.

Imagine someone spending $5000 on a dive vacation and having someone come up and tell you, "The boat voted 8-5 that you are too fat to dive. Enjoy your book."

It's nice when the anecdote provides a clear cut case. But such will not always be the case. Skinny people have high blood pressure, heart disease, and clogged arteries, too.

Imagine someone spending $5000 on a dive vacation and having someone come up and tell you, "The boat voted 8-5 that you are too fat to dive. Enjoy your book."

said with so much charm, i love it !!

stew

As an instructor, all I can do is decide whether or not to take on someone initially as a student. Once a person is already certified (whether I certified them or someone else), no one can go back and yank their c-card. At that point, personal responsibility takes over. It is the diver's responsibility to maintain good physical conditioning, as well as to maintain his/her diving skills.

The diving resort can (and, in my opinion, should) require some proof of current diving skills or have the diver take a refresher if he/she is not current. I've heard divers complain about that requirement, but, if the resort is upfront about the requirement (and the cost) it is a reasonable and responsible requirement. I do a checkout dive for my clients who have not been diving in a while both in the pool before we travel and as the first dive at a location. After all, those skills you learn as a student can save your life.

As for physical condition, it is not always possible for a lay person to tell what shape a person is in just by looking. As pointed out, a skinny person could have a heart condition just as easily as a fat person. I agree that I do not want my vacation ruined, or my safety compromised, by someone else's lack of physical conditioning or lack of skills. You also have the right (and personal responsiblity) to refuse to go out on a dive if you believe conditions are not safe. If you believe that a dive operation is compromising your safety, demand your money back and take your business else where. Agreed that it is easier to do on a day dive than a live aboard, but, still, there are always options. It is, at the end of the day, YOUR life we are talking about.

Guys

he was not talking about a newbie diver

the woman was already a rescue diver so legally she did not have to do a medical to dive as she was already certified

glad to hear some of you knock back students who are "medically" fit

always wondered what happens if a person turns up hungover, or drugged up and you as the instructor wanted to leave him/her onshore

hope most of the dive shops back you on your calls

cheers

As with all these things it comes down to the integrity of the instructor. If you think someone is unfit to dive then you have to have the balls to stand up and refuse. If the dive centre don't like it, go and work somewhere else........you are the one that they will go after not the centre. When it all goes horribly wrong the centre will 'no longer require your service' and they are deemed to have delt with it.....

Golden rule.....CYA.....

If the dive centre don't like it, go and work somewhere else........

I'm guessing you've never worked for dive centre. Changing jobs as a jobbing instructor can be a PITA - especially as you get older and wish to be more settled. Moving countries is expensive.

I also think that people are getting confused here. A certification card is proof that you, at some stage in your life, have passed the set of requirements to get the card. That's it. Nothing more. It's not a diving agency saying that you are fit to dive, nor that you will dive responsibly or anything else. (I'm sure they'd love to be able to force you have a refresher once a year but thankfully they've not gone that far yet).

Oh yeah - and dive instructors are dive _instructors_, not the diving police.

That's what I've been trying to say.....!

Once you get that first c-card, you may never see another instructor in your life. The instructor certifies that a person, at one point in time, knew enough and was fit enough, to become a diver. After that, personal responsibility takes over.

There are no diving police, and, quite frankly, I don't think any of us would really want that.

No one has yet invented a "Clue Meter" to determine if people have a clue. We surely need one but the politicians would ban it as few would pass.

Most states do not require auto drivers to prove their ability as they age but a few do now. Once you get that first drivers license, its up to you to determine if you have 'lost it' over time, whether 20 or 100.

If we as a society are unable/unwilling to monitor or re-test people in situations that can put others at risk, we are certainly not going to do it to those that are mostly putting just themselves at risk. Non-divers will likely assume you only put yourself at risk when you are a poor or unsafe diver.

Just a thought.

I am reminded of what my first dive instructor told us over and over in class. The most dangerous thing in the ocean for a diver... is...other divers.

There are no diving police, and, quite frankly, I don't think any of us would really want that.

i actually like the idea. i would have no problem doing a yearly refresher with an approved centre. i have nothing to be worried about yet. and in the future when i have lost my marbles and dont know day from night i would hope that someone would tell me to stop diving before i did myself some serious harm, or even worse some serious harm to someone else.

sadly i feel that " most " dive centres will let more or less anyone dive with them as long as they have £'s or $'s. i have had a few experiences with divers that are not switched on, taking bcd's off before their weight belts when trying to get back in a rib, and wonder why they are sinking, believe me its true. on this occassion i sensed this guy was not comfortable on the rib on the way out to a dive site, you have probably seen the same kind of thing. i told my wife to keep well away from him as he was a nightmare waiting to happen. after the incident with the weight belt my wife asked me how i knew. all i could say to her was with experience you will know too. now she has the experience, she is as good a judge of character as myself.

this example is probably the most craziest i have witnessed in a short diving history. we were diving in lembeh a few years ago now and we were on a boat going out to police pier. we had 4 japanese in the boat with us, all had the most amazing camera rigs. 3 of them back rolled in and started their dive whilst the 4th was still sat down on the bench, with her tank still in the tank holder and she was trying to back roll. she had no idea why she couldnt roll back into the water. eventually the boat boy got her up so she was in the proper position for a back roll entry. 3 - 2 - 1 the boat boy said and finally she back rolled into the water. now he passed her a massive camera rig and we thought that was the end of the humour. how wrong we were. she had a fully inflated bcd and was trying to duck dive with her rig and not going anywhere. she did not have a clue what was wrong and she was getting very frustrated. she must have made at least 8 attempts to duck dive down before her buddy returned to the surface and deflated her bcd for her. she clearly had no idea how to use a deflator hose or dump valves.

i cannot be the only person that ends up with these kind of divers on my boats. other WP members must have seen it all before. this is a fine example of money talking. if i was a guide for the resort then she would not be diving again, not with my company at least.

if i ever entered the world of diving for a living and i had someone like that on a boat with me i would probably tell them that they were not getting their card back until they could show me they deserve it. rightly or wrongly, i am that kind of person and do that kind of thing a lot. I personally think that there should be some kind of policing. but thats just my opinion.

stew

this is a fine example of money talking. if i was a guide for the resort then she would not be diving again, not with my company at least.

If you were a good guide for the resort what you'd actually do would be to dive with her and make sure she had a safe dive whilst working with her to try to improve her skills.

if i ever entered the world of diving for a living and i had someone like that on a boat with me i would probably tell them that they were not getting their card back until they could show me they deserve it. rightly or wrongly, i am that kind of person and do that kind of thing a lot.

I suspect you'd only do that once. Given the replacement value of the card I suspect that an accusation of theft would be heading you way and would be upheld by any police force and subsequent court of law. I'd imagine your training agency would also take sanctions and strip you of your ability to remain in the industry if you did this more than once.

I personally think that there should be some kind of policing. but thats just my opinion.

I agree with you that some poeple shouldn't dive - but I don't see how that could be enforced. Good luck to the agency that goes out on o limb and starts recalling cert cards on the say-so of it's instructors. I wouldn't imagine it would survive very long. (And how would it even work - could a PADI instructor un-certify a BSAC member?)

In the real world if a boat crew feel a diver is a liability to themself or other members of they should not allow that diver to dive. But that decision is often made not by the crew but by the company they work for.

Perhaps the solution is that if people feel certain companies aren't strict enough they should vote with their wallets and not go back on their boats - and let it be known why.

If you were a good guide for the resort what you'd actually do would be to dive with her and make sure she had a safe dive whilst working with her to try to improve her skills.

and whilst i was doing this i would not be showing the other guest ( who can dive ) the hairy frogfish, harlequin shrimps, pygmy sea horse bla bla bla. I think my other guests who were good at diving would have something to say if they come up from a dive without seeing the dive sites residents because all my time was spent helping a qualified diver with the basics.

I suspect you'd only do that once. Given the replacement value of the card I suspect that an accusation of theft would be heading you way and would be upheld by any police force and subsequent court of law. I'd imagine your training agency would also take sanctions and strip you of your ability to remain in the industry if you did this more than once.

that is probably right, but at least i would know that the diver didnt put themselves at any risk or any other divers at risk.

I agree with you that some poeple shouldn't dive - but I don't see how that could be enforced. Good luck to the agency that goes out on o limb and starts recalling cert cards on the say-so of it's instructors. I wouldn't imagine it would survive very long. (And how would it even work - could a PADI instructor un-certify a BSAC member?)

i never said it would be an easy thing to do. if agencies cared about their students then they would be happy to join forces

In the real world if a boat crew feel a diver is a liability to themself or other members of they should not allow that diver to dive. But that decision is often made not by the crew but by the company they work for.

I totally agree, but in all of my experiences this has never happend, hence why i included the details in the post.

Perhaps the solution is that if people feel certain companies aren't strict enough they should vote with their wallets and not go back on their boats - and let it be known why.

that is easier said than done, when you have paid for a 2 week liveaboard you are not going to be getting off the boat on day 2 are you. i agree that if it was a shore based company i would have no problems with chatting to the course director and telling them my concerns which in fact i have done so before.

stew