Still Thinking about Rebreathers?

If you’re interested in getting into diving rebreathers, KISS Rebreathers recently announced their 2009 retail prices for both the Classic and the Sport.

In case anyone hasn’t noticed, KISS recently announced their 2009 retail prices for both the Classic and the Sport.

In addition to their “Standard” setup with the 3 independent, PO2-only displays (each independently battery powered) which can be upgraded to VR Technologies PO2 pendant in place the KISS displays for monitoring O2 levels in the loop, both Classic and the Sport are now offered with VR Technologies new VRx Computer.

The successor to the VR3, the VRx offers more than a computer with a sleek, low profile design and pretty face (it comes in a choice of colors), it features a high resolution screen with graphics, rechargeable battery system (similar to those used in cell phones with 4 year warranty). But most important to a rebreather diver, the VRx is the first computer from VR Technologies to directly read all 3 oxygen sensors without the need of any addition hardware other than a fisher type cable, allowing the dive to both monitor their PO2 and dive profile, with the computer making the calculations in real time. Furthermore, the computer comes standard with both VGM and Buhlmann algorithm’s for nitrox and trimix diving in addition closed circuit and open circuit modes.

The retail price (listed in Canadian dollars)for Classic with the VRx computer will be $7,790.00, with the Sport/VRx combo coming in for $1,100 less at $6,690.00.

Based on the current value of the Canadian dollar against who ever, the cost advantage to getting into a new rebreather is more compelling than ever.

For example, looking into today’s (Feb. 23, 2009) current exchange rates, for $5,350.84 US, would get that lucky diver a new Sport KISS, with a VRx computer. Or if you choose to go a little less fancy 3,842.25 (U.S.) will get you the same rebreather with the traditional KISS triple PO2 displays. With or without the VRx, I don’t think you will find a better deal from another rebreather with a reputation in good standing as KISS.

KISS lives up to their motto Keeping It Super Simple, even with their prices.

Thanks for the update Walt, the prices on these units is really going down. I hear Poseidon will come out with one too, I am waiting on that one before I decide which one I buy.

I did my training (and lots of dives) on the Inspiration. It is a very nice unit and the use of rebreather is absolutely amazing for some of my research (fish behavior) and for photography. You can get a lot closer a lot easier to many fishes using them.

I have looked at the Poseidon Mk VI Discovery, and it is certainly a compact enough unit. Keep in mind, its design for only recreational level diving. Has no proven track record like a KISS rEvo, Inspo, Meg, etc., The Mk VI’s vital electronics are sealed in the scrubber’s head and encapsulated in oil, so if an issue arises the unit will need to be sent off to a certified Poseidon service/repair facility. I would ask somebody near you who one owns a Poseidon regulator how that has been working lately. Also, I haven been diving rebreathers long enough to be reluctant to dive a piece of life support system equipment that is dependent on a single rechargeable battery as its power supply with only two O2 cells for monitoring/maintaining my PO2.

Walt,

It's an impressive unit! Might finally be time for me to move up to a rebreather!

Is the Classic Vrx version a "complete" package, e.g., with the three-ox sensors, or do things like that need to be added?

Also, is the pricing you quote the MSRP available through any KISS dealer, or only direct from you?

I have a couple of Sport Kiss units in the family, and they are great systems. I dove with Inspriation / Evolution divers for years and was turned off by the complexity, bulk, and frequent technical problems. The Kiss units just work, and are quick and simple to maintain.

You can probably expect to add some additonal $$$ for cylinders, accessories, stage bottle, BCD or BP/W, and the like.

I always tell people that when you don't think you are spending enough on your diving, first by a camera and when the pain of that wears off, buy a rebreather.

Walt,

 

It's an impressive unit! Might finally be time for me to move up to a rebreather!

 

Is the Classic Vrx version a "complete" package, e.g., with the three-ox sensors, or do things like that need to be added?

 

Also, is the pricing you quote the MSRP available through any KISS dealer, or only direct from you?

Is an MCCR appropriate for someone doing something else (using a camera for example) while underwater? I have had my fair share of life threatening near-misses (documented) with CCR while taking photographs in years gone by and wouldn't use a non-automatic one without a HUD now. I would recommend an Evolution, a Sentinel or a Prism (when Hollis makes them available).

Is an MCCR appropriate for someone doing something else (using a camera for example) while underwater?

In addition to myself, Curt Bowen (publisher of Advance Diving Magazine), Doug Ebersole, John Rawlings, Richard (Harry) Harris, Alan Studley, Dave Harasti and Norbert Wu have been or now using KISS rebreathers.

Bruce to answer your question, KISS does not provide the three oxygen cells with any their rebreathers. You will need to purchase all three. KISS recommends the Teledyne brand R22-D’s. They run $70 each are highly dependable and last about a year. All rebreather owners have buy these things. I can give a list where to get them. Oh yes, you can ad a HUD to it.

Also, to complete the system you will need the following:

Two tanks for your dil and Oxygen. Your choice 13, 14, 19 cu.ft., with left and right DIN valves. Two Pressure gauges, one for your oxygen, one for your Diluent. I should note don’t buy into you need oxygen cleaned pressure gauges. Any off the shelf work just fine.

Three Low and two High pressure swivel hose fittings. This is an option for cleaner hose routing.

And, of course a harness and wing. Note: Any BCD/Harness that has the bolt holes in the back, or backplate can be used on all KISS rebreathers.

John, anyone who tells you that MCCR’s are hard to pilot, especially if they are thinking of handling cameras has never dived one that was designed to normally operate as a MCCR. The thing I have found with eCCR’s is that yes, you can operate it manually but the intention is when the electronics take a dump, and they will, I can say this from first hand expericnece diving an Inspiration for a little over a year, all I can say it was a Royal PITA!!.

After two very solid years of diving a Sport KISS, I have never missed a dive due to a mechanical or electronic problems (like there is a lot of electronics – three O2 readers and a dive computer). They are easy to set up, dive, and break down, clean and put away. Plus there is nothing on that I can’t fix myself so there is no need to send it back the factory for servicing.

Having never dived a rebreather, I always think of a micro or mini rEVO Hybrid Ti. The Apoc is one I am waiting for to see how it does in the end.

.

 

John, anyone who tells you that MCCR’s are hard to pilot, especially if they are thinking of handling cameras has never dived one that was designed to normally operate as a MCCR. The thing I have found with eCCR’s is that yes, you can operate it manually but the intention is when the electronics take a dump, and they will, I can say this from first hand expericnece diving an Inspiration for a little over a year, all I can say it was a Royal PITA!!.

 

After two very solid years of diving a Sport KISS, I have never missed a dive due to a mechanical or electronic problems (like there is a lot of electronics – three O2 readers and a dive computer). They are easy to set up, dive, and break down, clean and put away. Plus there is nothing on that I can’t fix myself so there is no need to send it back the factory for servicing.

Please note the date:

http://www.divernet.com/cgi-bin/articles.p...the+Barbersho...

Reading your story on “HOW I GOT INTO TROUBLE AND OUT OF IT WITH AN INSPIRATION” is one of the reasons why I got away from the Inspiration. With MCCR's you follow your planned set-point not trust a piece of electronics to maintain it for you.

I have been to Coco’s, Malapelo, and the Isla Revillagigedos, know the diving conditions very well. In fact the conditions at home in Northern Palm Beach and North Carolina waters are not that much different – strong currents, depths 70 to 150 feet, vis from 100 down to 20 feet.

To say I am too busy to the monitor my displays and dive computer (both mounted on my left wrist) during a dive is like saying I am too busy to take in the information through the camera’s viewfinder. Tasking loading, does shooting a bag midway up from the bottom on a 140 dive in a live boat situation while judging your camera, monitor depth/time/PO2 (I have 10 to 15 min. deco to full fill) quantify? If conditions are that bad for me to do what I came there to do, what am I doing in the water in the first place.

Reading your story on “HOW I GOT INTO TROUBLE AND OUT OF IT WITH AN INSPIRATION” is one of the reasons why I got away from the Inspiration. With MCCR's you follow your planned set-point not trust a piece of electronics to maintain it for you.

 

I have been to Coco’s, Malapelo, and the Isla Revillagigedos, know the diving conditions very well. In fact the conditions at home in Northern Palm Beach and North Carolina waters are not that much different – strong currents, depths 70 to 150 feet, vis from 100 down to 20 feet.

 

To say I am too busy to the monitor my displays and dive computer (both mounted on my left wrist) during a dive is like saying I am too busy to take in the information through the camera’s viewfinder. Tasking loading, does shooting a bag midway up from the bottom on a 140 dive in a live boat situation while judging your camera, monitor depth/time/PO2 (I have 10 to 15 min. deco to full fill) quantify? If conditions are that bad for me to do what I came there to do, what am I doing in the water in the first place.

You miss the point. In those days an Inspiration had to have the set-point changed manually, which how I came to foul up when I got distracted trying to get a shot. Now that's taken care of by an automatic change. The first CCR I used that had that automatic feature was the Prism Topaz.

http://www.divernet.com/cgi-bin/articles.p...+Prism+Topaz+...

John I did not miss the point. I know the difference between the earlier, or classic Inspiration models with the dual handsets and the newer Vision electronic model Inspo’s and Evolutions, as well about some of the issues that have arisen with said electronics.

Putting blind faith in the electronics that both monitors and meters your system’s percentage of O2 scares me. We all know electronics of any kind – dive computers, strobes, cameras, etc., are more prone to fail in a marine environment. As one engineer put it, batteries and circuit boards are deathly allergic to salt water. Hence manual systems keep working as long as there is a gas supply and the CPU between your ears is functioning. KISS is also one the first CCR manufacturers to incorporate a second stage regulator into the mouthpiece (DSV) as standard equipment creating what is referred to as a BOV (Bail Out Valve) should everything fail.

Two Pressure gauges, one for your oxygen, one for your Diluent. I should note don’t buy into you need oxygen cleaned pressure gauges. Any off the shelf work just fine.

Even on the O2 side? Why is that?

John I did not miss the point. I know the difference between the earlier, or classic Inspiration models with the dual handsets and the newer Vision electronic model Inspo’s and Evolutions, as well about some of the issues that have arisen with said electronics.

 

Putting blind faith in the electronics that both monitors and meters your system’s percentage of O2 scares me. We all know electronics of any kind – dive computers, strobes, cameras, etc., are more prone to fail in a marine environment. As one engineer put it, batteries and circuit boards are deathly allergic to salt water. Hence manual systems keep working as long as there is a gas supply and the CPU between your ears is functioning. KISS is also one the first CCR manufacturers to incorporate a second stage regulator into the mouthpiece (DSV) as standard equipment creating what is referred to as a BOV (Bail Out Valve) should everything fail.

Well, it's only a difference of opinion - but I find photography something that is all-consuming - hence my original point. You need to give a manually driven CCR one hundred percent attention at all times. With a HUD, you need to give an ECCR one hundred percent attention for NEARLY all the time! You can't miss a red light staring you in the eye surely? (Green is good.)

Only my opinion but a manual CCR would not suit my way of underwater photography because I am likely to forget to watch my pO2 at all times.

Evolution and Sentinel both offer very good BOVs. and can be driven manually if required.

I should add that in Europe all CCRs must pass CE criteria and although it is possible to buy a non CE-certified CCR and import it privately, it is illegal to buy and sell within the EU. So many CCR manufacturers think they will easily get CE-marked but then find their units don't make the grade.

For anyone wishing to read about the Mk VI, here is a link to the user manual.

http://www.poseidon.se/downloads/MkVI_Disc...mplete_v1.6.pdf

One thing to consider is that all modern rebreathers, whether manually or electronically controlled, rely on chemical oxygen sensors inside the breathing loop to monitor the partial pressure of O2. Historically, manufacturers have employed multiple O2 sensors as a work-around to the issue of the chemical sensors potential to mis-read PO2's, either through condensate build-up on the permeable membrane, or current limiting due to aging or damage.

It will be interesting to see if the Mk VI continuos automatic cell verification procedures and algorithms add an additional level of safety by alerting users to O2 cell inconsistencies during a dive.

To say that manually controlled CCR's are inherently safer than electronically controlled units ignores this weakness common to both types. The "electronics" in both types of rebreathers begin at the chemical O2 cell. If they are faulty, no amount of computing, whether human or electronic will make either type safe to dive.

"Well, it's only a difference of opinion - but I find photography something that is all-consuming - hence my original point."

O.K. speaking as one professional photographer to another, I have never found shooting pictures underwater to be "all-consuming" and I don't think I need to get into how long I have been doing it.

As to your statement that "You need to give a manually driven CCR one hundred percent attention at all times. With a HUD, you need to give an ECCR one hundred percent attention for NEARLY all the time! You can't miss a red light staring you in the eye surely? (Green is good.)

Guess what, HUDs are available for MCCR’s and they work quite nicely on them too. To making the statement that MCCR's require a greater degree of attention implying they are far harder to operate in the water is truly false, telling me you don't have much experience diving one. Sure both require proper monitoring – recommend visual sweep of the handsets is every 15 to 20 seconds. A momentary drop from 1.2 to 1.1 or even .9 is not life threatening, and doesn’t really change anything to dive profile unless you let stay there or recur repeatedly.

“Only my opinion but a manual CCR would not suit my way of underwater photography because I am likely to forget to watch my pO2 at all times."

Far enough, that’s what you are most comfortable with.

Nearly all rebreathers now have BOV’s, however, few include them as part of a standard package but as a $700 to $900 option. And yes Evolution and Sentinel can be driven manually if required. All ECCR’s are designed to operate in a manual mode should the electronic controller for the Oxygen solenoid crap out, or gets stuck in the open or closed phase of oxygen addition to the loop. But the means to do so are intended for diving the unit comfortably but to get you back alive in such an emergency situation.

With KISS, and for that matter rEvo’s, instead of an electronically controlled solenoid that fires O2 into the loop, KISS rebreathers use a constant flow orifice. It is basically a “leaky valve” that administers a slow, steady flow of 02 into the loop, which may require the diver to “top off” with manual injection to keep up with their metabolism. The bleed rate of O2 into the system is set slightly below the average person’s metabolic rate. When the diver needs to add more O2 into the loop, the addition is preformed with the simple press of the button. Hence, the acronym mCCR for manual Closed Circuit Rebreather.

CE is a European issue for rebreathers, I would not put to much stock into unless you live there.

As for making the grade. Testament to the validity of this type of system, there have been zero fatalities that can be contributed to the design or use of a KISS. Many attribute this coming from the fact that these systems are simpler to maintain and pilot, with some firm believers sighting manual injection builds safer habits. For instance, regular monitoring and adjustment of loop O2 balance becomes almost second nature to the diver, reducing the likelihood that a malfunction would go unnoticed. Other rebreathers in the mCCR camp include Megaladon’s Copis Meg, the rEVO and the Pelagian.

Furthermore, in addition to offer the user a better chance at remedying a gas management issue underwater, they (KISS) are simple to repair in the field, and reducing the prospects of missing a dive or whole dive trip. There are few components on a KISS that cannot be taken apart with a small cresset wrench and Philips screwdriver.

You can certainly wait for the Poseidon or the APOC, but can it be trusted when, if they get here when the unit has zero history in the field. The KISS rebreathers are here, it has a solid reputation, its not going away, and as of late, the price (the reason I started this post) is as right as any one could be.

How much did you spend for that Inspiration?

How much did you spend for that Inspiration?

I was given it - just as I was given a Prism and will be given a Sentinel.

Only my opinion but a manual CCR would not suit my way of underwater photography because I am likely to forget to watch my pO2 at all times.

I think you are making a blanket statement about rebreathers that actually applies to all modes of Diving. If you are spending 100% of your attention on photography, then you are also not monitoring your depth, gas pressure, or nitrogen exposure. Now you may be so familiar and acustomed to doing these things that you don't think about them any more, and that is good. But if you ignored all of these critical factors you would not still be here posting! The same is true with a rebreather, mCCR or eCCR. You get used to looking a the appropriate gauges and montiors and reacting accordingly. Add O2 now and again, start your assent, don't go into unplanned Deco, etc.

An eCCR is probably very dangerous indeed if you don't want to be bothered with such minor details. If it ever has a fault and makes an error (bad O2 cell, electronic failure, solenoid stickage) then you are in big trouble. mCCR ensures that you get into the automatic mode of glancing at gauges and making any adjustments needed. After a few dives (and 300 minutes of required UW training) you really don't need to think any more about it than you do with your open circuit scuba gauges.

Dave

An eCCR is probably very dangerous indeed if you don't want to be bothered with such minor details. If it ever has a fault and makes an error (bad O2 cell, electronic failure, solenoid stickage) then you are in big trouble. mCCR ensures that you get into the automatic mode of glancing at gauges and making any adjustments needed. After a few dives (and 300 minutes of required UW training) you really don't need to think any more about it than you do with your open circuit scuba gauges.

This is some very weird logic. The manual approach no more compels good habits than anything else and likening the risks of open circuit negligence and rebreather negligence is clearly flawed. Under the right conditions I can dive open circuit and never once glance at my gauges. I shouldn't do so but I won't die if it happens.

I'm following this thread with interest, but I find the argument that manual CCR forces good habits and is therefore superior to be akin to claiming that doing away with all traffic lights and stop lights improves traffic safety. It does not, of course, what it does is slow traffic to a crawl. The same effect could be had by outlawing cars. Doing away with rebreathers will "improve" their safety, too, but not in the way people want. A true improvement would be to make a system that really works better, not one that strips functionality to a minimum.

I think you are making a blanket statement about rebreathers that actually applies to all modes of Diving. If you are spending 100% of your attention on photography, then you are also not monitoring your depth, gas pressure, or nitrogen exposure. Now you may be so familiar and acustomed to doing these things that you don't think about them any more, and that is good. But if you ignored all of these critical factors you would not still be here posting! The same is true with a rebreather, mCCR or eCCR. You get used to looking a the appropriate gauges and montiors and reacting accordingly. Add O2 now and again, start your assent, don't go into unplanned Deco, etc.

 

An eCCR is probably very dangerous indeed if you don't want to be bothered with such minor details. If it ever has a fault and makes an error (bad O2 cell, electronic failure, solenoid stickage) then you are in big trouble. mCCR ensures that you get into the automatic mode of glancing at gauges and making any adjustments needed. After a few dives (and 300 minutes of required UW training) you really don't need to think any more about it than you do with your open circuit scuba gauges.

 

Dave

Open-circuit is very forgiving. You only need to check gauges from time to time. You can either breathe or you cannot. Unplanned deco stops that become mandatory are usually more of an inconvenience than a disaster. A CCR allows you to breathe at all times even if what you are breathing will kill you in a heart-beat. You must know your PO2 at all times. A manual CCR has perceived safety among its devotees because you must continually attend to this O2 level whereas an automatic system tops up as you go and you need only to see your PO2 is what you ordered. If your PO2 drops a Head-Up-Display gives unmistakable warning of impending disaster even if looking through the eyepiece of a camera. It's as clear as a red light is from a green light.

I have been involved in the development of some popular types since 1992 and I would NOW not wish to dive with a camera and a manual type. It's only my opinion and that may be worth nothing but I'm an old diver, not a bold diver. CCRs of all types are a serious proposition and not suitable for use by just anybody. That is why, I believe, there have been so many casualties.

By the way, I've had all the problems you mention at some time and 1) have had due warning about them and 2) have been able to take over manual control.

I have a Spanish friend who says that automatic gearboxes in cars make people into bad drivers and that is why manual gearboxes are more popular in Spain. Is that similar argument?