Canon EOS 10D

Hi gang,

I have had the Canon 10D for about two months now and have used it extensively topside. I am very impressed and i beleive it is going to be awesome underwater. The improvements over the D60 are considerable ( as a fellow owner put it - it is a D60 on steroids! ) The thing that I am looking forward to is the ability to change ASA as you like up to 800 with absolutely no loss in quality. Never again a problem with too slow shutter speeds for ambient light exposures!

Anyway, I have ordered the UK Germany UW housing and it is on its way. I was told it is the first one coming to North America. I also considered Subal but after the housing and the ports I require it would have been about $1200 more. I also contacted Sea and Sea Japan about a housing for the 10D as that was my obvious choice as I currently have a ton of their Canon SLR housing stuff ( any buyers let me know) but they have no definate plans for a housing yet.

Now I want to tell you about something intersting. A few days ago I thought I would see how my 10D would perform with my current Sea and Sea strobes ( I have YS 120D, 90D and 30D strobes that I have been using with my CX 603 housings for Canon Rebel 2000). So I attached the strobes to the CX 603 housings bulkheads and connected the hot shoe connecter to the 10D. The strobes not only work but they DO work in TTL! I swear to that - I tested it many many times. For exactly the same settings a manual strobe setting would blow out the exposure but with TTL strobe settings the strobes would obviously be quelched and the exposure come out correct! Now as the Sea and Sea housing simply changes the Canon signal to a Nikon signal and the UK housing will do exactly the same ( I ordered the housing with two N5 bulkheads) I beleive that I am going to get TTL capabilities with my Sea and Sea strobes! Or am I delusional here???

I have many questions for you guys who have used the D30 and D60 underwater and would appreciate your experience. What comes to mind firstly is my lens collection. With the 1.6 factor things obviously change considerably. The other thing is that several of my Sigma lenses do not work with the 10D. This is probably old news to you but many of the older ( and some of the not so older! ) Sigma lenses show a ERR 99 message. Sigma can upgrade some of these but mostly it is just too bad. So my first question is what is the best replacement for the old film favourite 50mm macro - I used it extensively UW. But there really isnt anything that I can come up with to fill the void. Then of course there is the wide angle question - my trusty 20mm lens is now a 32mm lens and my old Sigma 14mm lens is one of the ERR 99 victims. Apparently the new Sigma 14mm version is OK so should I fork out for it or the Canon 15mm fisheye?

That is probably more than you can bear from me as an introduction, so I will quit now. But I do look forward to sharing some views with you.

Thanks and Cheers

Andre

Hi Andre,

and congrats to your new housing. I would be very happy to exchange some 10D

uw-tips when we come back from our trip. If you want to do us a favour please

post some sample images of your first dives into our contest.

They will automatically appear under the 10D and the UK-Housing, so everyone

in a buying decision can take advantage of that information.

PS: I found the Sea&Sea info quite interesting, but could not really believe it yet.

I have a UK Germany D30/60 housing and it does not do TTL. The hotshoe connector doesn't have enough contacts to do TTL, just manual flash.

Cheers

James

the UK actually does have enough contacts, the problem is it doesn't have any electronics in the hotshoe, it's a simple Subtronic passthough connector. I replaced the hotshoe connector in my UK-G EOS3 housing with one from Ikelite (Canon TTL unit #9155.70) and there's actually a circuit board in the Ike hotshoe that makes strobe TTL work for Canons. I've only tried this with Ike strobes, so I can't say for sure it will work w/Sea & Sea just as well.

the diagram below from Ikelite shows 5 pins used for TTL on the Nikonos bulkhead. however, one is not connected (3.3k-ohm) so you really do only need quelch, ground and trigger. The ready light never worked, but so what.

also, don't try to ask Canon what the pin outs of their hotshoe are, they'll tell you it's proprietary info :ph34r:

Marty

Thanks for the replies on the TTL issue. It certainly seems odd that if its only a question of a hot shoe connecter that makes TTL work, that UK cant supply it. I will try to EM them and see what they have to say about the issue. Maybe a simple modification ia all that is required. I will let you know what transpires.

I replaced the hotshoe connector in my UK-G EOS3 housing with one from Ikelite (Canon TTL unit #9155.70) and there's actually a circuit board in the Ike hotshoe that makes strobe TTL work for Canons.

I could be wrong, but this is a film camera housing. The camera uses Canon's TTL system, not digital E-TTL.

Yes, the 10D and the D60 use E-TTL, which uses a number of preflashes.

So I would be extremely surprised if you could get any TTL performance from your strobes.

Good luck though and let us know how it goes!

Cheers

James

I wonder if the 10D will have the characteristic of the D100 in that when connected with all 5 pins to a incompatible TTL strobe (i.e. one that doesn't do preflashes) it locks up all together and won't even trip the shutter?

Alex

Following URLs apply to either the Nikon or Canon digital SLR camras:

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/2d100strobes.html

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/dig_definitions.html

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/sync_cord_d1x.html

curious Ike, in the sync_cord_d1x link why recommned covering camera hotshoe contacts with tape? will the camera be damaged if you don't?

The camera jusw won't fire and will display a flashing lightning bolt. Because it "knows" that a non-D-TTL flash is attached.

Cheers

James

Martys:

Either or only one is necessary. Covering the camera contacts allows use of standard sync cord rather than the special cord.............

I have been using the contact blocking approach with my D100. One word of warning I have once found that my contacts went a bit faulty after blocking and unblocking them repeatedly.

It has only happened once and was fine again the next day. But after a few days of shooting manual flash I wanted to go back to DTTL for a night dive (with only about 15 minutes to turn around my camera) - despite removing the blocker I could not get a clean connection and ended up shooting the night dive on manual. The next day DTTL worked again.

So I just wanted to let everyone know that continual blocking and unblocking of connectors may reduce their reliable working life.

Alex

Below is one of the shots from the night dive. D100+28-70mm @ 28mm with single Subtronic Alpha flash.

I'd like to lift the myth a little bit. I think poor Andre created a little bit of confusion among everyone here. First thing I have to clearly state is that no underwater strobe manufacturer was able to crack the E-TTL protocoll so far. I doubt that this is ever going to happen and I simply do not see a future for dedicated uw-strobes and true E-TTL support. The new E-TTL protocol from Canon and Nikon is encrypted and they let nobodies hands on it. Only strobe I know capable of Canon E-TTL is from Metz and for the surface. I think they paid a fat license fee or just bought out someone from the Canon eningineering department to be able to do that. Two things no small scuba company will ever be able to afford.

So, why was Andre able to do TTL with Sea&Sea strobes. Answer is simple. Back in the old days TTL protocoll was simple - means not E-TTL!! Several third party manufacturers were able to crack it or to develop a workaround. For Example there was a small piece of electronic introduced by SUBAL which converted Canon 6 pin TTL to Nikonos 5 pin TTL. Thi is also the Reason why Andre's strobes for an old camera work!!! Nothing else... If you plug an E-TTL camera only to that device it is not going to work properly.

I talked to Uwe Kiehl today about this and he told me that he is simply not installing any of these workarounds anymore for digital SLRs. It is better to have a pure put-trough of the pins to offer people more choices. Standard configuration for many housings like his UK-10D or the one from JONAH is the installation of one Nikonos V socket for connecting two uw-strobes in manual mode (nice for wide angles) or one housed system strobe via an S6 socket. Because E-TTL requires 6 wires to be put through.

It has to be mentioned that the functionality of Nikonos V, Ikelite or Sea&Sea Wetlink sockets is absolutely the same. You can technically do the same stuff on the wires with all of them. Just when you want Canon E-TTL to work you require S6 plugs.

It is also a deep petty that we have so many connectors around for a 5 pin system. Even though there are adapters from Ikelite sockets to N5. I have not seen any N5 -> Sea&Sea adapter, which is a big pitty. Because people usually order their Sea&Sea strobes with Nikonos V or Wetlink plugs.

A simple adapter would make many photgraphers hearts jump up, since we all know how handy adapters can be be from the INT/DIN issue you might have encountered with tanks and your regulator.

I just wanted to summarize this here, even if the hard-core posters know all this for a long time. But when re-reading the threat I just found that our speculations might lead some digital newbies to the wrong assumptions.

Andi

. I think poor Andre created a little bit of confusion among everyone here.

 

Andre is poor because:

a) He has just forked out megabucks for more UW photo equipment, and

B) he ( I ) still doesn't get the TTL issue.

 

So I have repeated my experiment again. I have actual pictures of the setup and the actual pictures taken. ( I cant post them to this site but I wil gladly EMail them to anyone who is interested) It goes like this:

 

I connect my Canon EOS-10D camera's hot shoe to my Sea and Sea CX-603 housings hot shoe cable connector. I connect a Sea and Sea sync cord/s ( Nikonos 5 pin variety) to one (or both) of the bulk head strobe sockets. The other end/or ends get connected to one or two of any of the following - Sea and Sea YS120D, YS 90D ( old type) or YS 30D.

I set the program M( manual ) mode with a shutter speed of 90 and aperture of f16 ( An obvious underexposure in my indoor situation at night) I take a carpenters glue bottle which just happens to be handy and place it in front of the 10D lens ( a 28-90mm in this case). I put the strobe about 6 inches from the glue bottle.

I now focus the camera on the glue bottle and start taking pictures. First no strobe - result is an almost black glue bottle. Now I turn a strobe on to the manual full setting and fire with the same camera settings - wham, a full dump and the picture is blasted totally white. OK now, under exactly the same conditions, and giving the strobe plenty of time to recharge, I set the strobe on TTL. I take the shot - flash - BEEEEPPP - the green TTL confirmation comes on. I look at the picture - PERFECTLY EXPOSED!!!! I repeat this experiment over and over varying the strobes and at various F stops. It works every single time. The strobes are functioning in TTL mode with the 10D. The flash ready light works, the TTL confirmation light works, the flash indicator in the viewfinder works - EVERYTHING works!! I swear to it folks.

 

So I dont know what is going on here. I realise it isnt E-TTL, but it is TTL and it works. Surely then this is possible to reproduce. Even if I simply rip out my CX-603's hot shoe connector with wires and strobe sockets and transfer them to my new UK 10D housing it has got to work. It just seems to be too simple to give up on it and I would dearly like to have TTL with my new toy if at all possible.

 

I did EMail UK about this but have not heard back from them. Andi, you seem to have communication with UK - if so I would be grateful if you could run this by him one more.

 

Thanks, poor Andre

I have many questions for you guys who have used the D30 and D60 underwater and would appreciate your experience. What comes to mind firstly is my lens collection. With the 1.6 factor things obviously change considerably. The other thing is that several of my Sigma lenses do not work with the 10D. This is probably old news to you but many of the older ( and some of the not so older! ) Sigma lenses show a ERR  99 message. Sigma can upgrade some of these but mostly it is just too bad. So my first question is what is the best replacement for the old film favourite 50mm macro - I used it extensively UW. But there really isnt anything that I can come up with to fill the void. Then of course there is the wide angle question - my trusty 20mm lens is now a 32mm lens and my old Sigma 14mm lens is one of the ERR 99 victims. Apparently the new Sigma 14mm version is OK so should I fork out for it or the Canon 15mm fisheye?

Funny,... I heard about this already from some stores. But as a happy 10D owner, we had to buy a complete new set of lenses. After hanging around at the shop for some time I was informed that SIGMA upgrades their firmware from time to time.

So as we bought a brand new SIGMA 15-30mm and a 15mm SIGMA Fisheye we did not encounter these problems (I was fearing/expecting). Andre, maybe you can send the lenses to SIGMA for a little Software update? I press my thumbs for you.

The shop people also told me that CANON lenses rarely should be affected by this issue, as they try to keep their own system as downward compatible as possible. But of course they are not flawless, either

Hi Andre,

I repeat this experiment over and over varying the strobes and at various F stops. .

Mhh really strange. Andre can you post some sample images still containing the EXIF data? Maybe that reveals the mistery. Also I would like to ask you to test different lightning conditions instead of changing the F-stops. We tested TTL with our Coolpix by simply changing available light. Simply shade that bottle with a blanket or something and keep the settings of the camera constant. Or just turn of some lights in the Room where you shoot.

Even if I simply rip out my CX-603's hot shoe connector with wires and strobe sockets and transfer them to my new UK 10D housing it has got to work.  It just seems to be too simple to give up on it and I would dearly like to have TTL with my new toy if at all possible..

So as far as I understood you have a Sea&Sea housing. I still cannot believe it until I see the sample shots from you, but maybe you have scored with this one. Reason would be that Sea&Sea produced a workaround which accidently also makes Canon E-TTL work with their strobes. Somehow... ?!=?!? I bet a lot of people where licking their fingers for a discovery like yours.

The probabiltiy of this is just so god damn low, that I still cannot believe it.

I did EMail UK about this but have not heard back from them. Andi,  you seem to have communication with UK - if so I would be grateful if you could run this by him one more.

Yes, he called me yesterday to help him with the translation of this thread. He said he wanted to reply to you and the thread personally, but give him time to answer. It's basically what I have already written here, when I saw no reply in the evening.

I will talk to him about this issue, today and try to build a bridge for you. B)

Andi thanks for your interest and support with this issue.

Personally I think that the 10D simply works with my Sea and Sea strobes in simple TTL ( not digital E-TTL ) I have some literature that explains the difference in Canon TTL modes - there is TTL, A-TTL, E-TTL( non digital and introduced many years ago - even my old Rebel G had that) and now digital E-TTL.

Work interferes for the next 24 hours but I will E Mail ( or maybe I can attach) the photo files in question with EXIF info. I will also repeat the tests in varying light conditions as you suggested.

I did get a reply from UK - he seems to suggest to instal one N5 and one 6pin strobe bulkhead. I still think that that if the Sea and Sea hot shoe connecter was installed with two N5 strobe bulkheads the problem will be solved.

More tomorrow - Thanks Andre ( poor Andre)

If you send Uwe the socket with hotshoe in an envelope, I am sure he will install it for you!

Congratulations on your new housing, "poor" Andre.

What intrigues me about what you have said is that you get a confirmation tone, and that a full dump blows the pic out, while the TTL dump is the proper lighting.

If ttl isn't working, you should get no confirmation, and a full dump, right?

What happens on the Nexus D100 housing, which has all five pins wired, when you set a strobe in TTL?