What Camera should i invest in - Post Magic Lantern ?

Hello all,

I find these forums very interesting reading them most days. I'm at the point where i have spent enough time on the sidelines reading and want to get started in UW video.

But which camera system to invest in ? Scarlet sounds great but will it ever materialize and if it does how much will the housing cost? I got really interested in the EX1 and thought that was going to be it. Now i am not sure. With the firmware changes going on with the 5DM2 and some of the footage being posted it looks like the Canon is a serious contender. I am not sure though because no one is really giving a run down on using the 5DM2 - we're just seeing show reels all over the net. But to my very untrained eye these new cams (5DM2 and GH1) are giving stunning results.

So given i'm not sure how difficult it is to handle these new cams underwater in their conventional still photo housings, what camera systems are serious contenders for investing in?

The way i am seeing these developments is

1/ 5DM2 or GH1 - stunning quality but difficult to use - although i feel uncomfortable saying that because i am just not sure how difficult taking footage with these new cams actually is

2/ Scarlet - if it ever arrives and we can actually afford a housing for it

3/ EX1 - this seems to me to still be a contender if the new cams don't work out too well.

and

4/ what camera system am i missing ?

I would like to get the highest quality footage i can. As far as i can see it looks to me like the cameras outlined will deliver the goods ( scarlet is of course only a prediction of what it may produce ).

I need to keep my feet firmly on the ground with all this not being rich and all. I would like to keep the whole rig under $20K USD if possible. What are my options ? have i missed a camera out there anywhere ? I have zero experience shooting UW but need to output the best i can with my limited budget. I think i want a gates housing but that limits me the EX1. Any insights would be a great help on this.

Just one last thing - do you think its maybe a good time to sit back and relax for a bit longer and give all these new developments time to mature into something really good a bit down the road?

Thanks

JD

What has impressed me the most with the DSLR videos is the shallow depth of field topside. Haven't seen anything like it from consumer camcorders even with 35 mm adapters.

To me, UW is less impressive and less of a difference compared to consumer video camcorders.

Just my 2 cents.

What do you actually need the Camera etc for... i.e Work or hobby ??? ... Hobby to become work ??? Stock footage, broadcast, impress everyone with your new toy, actually use it for the greater good, Upgrade in 3 months because someone posted better footage online with their upgrade/ new toy... Etc etc etc etc...

Personally I would just get into it as a hobby because there is just NO money in shooting these days... Unless your a hitman but then again i've heard thats getting more competitive ...

Dive safe

DeanB

What has impressed me the most with the DSLR videos is the shallow depth of field topside. Haven't seen anything like it from consumer camcorders even with 35 mm adapters.

 

To me, UW is less impressive and less of a difference compared to consumer video camcorders.

 

Just my 2 cents.

EX1 with Letus extreme and decent lenses ... shallow DOF... throw in some 'Magic bullet' for excellent 'film like' quality...

Dive safe

DeanB

Since you've mentioned 2 professional rigs, I'll assume you are interested in getting into broadcast. In which case you only have 2 choices, the EX1/3. I won't talk about Scarlett as it's still vaporware. The Canon 5D2 is nice but it's still a DSLR first. The EX series has much great options on image control and it's the only camera under 10k to be accepted as principle A camera by broadcasters. The H264 is a finishing codec and is not accepted by any broadcast company as A cam, although in SD countries, it has been used to shoot commercials etc. You also have to consider for your TV color system as the 5D2 is 30P only and shooting under certain lights you will get strobing effects.

The GH1 is a nice little camera I really want to buy just to keep in the bag for whenever. However, it too suffers from 50/60hz on different models. I don't know why manufacturers just make 50/60 hz compatible cameras into one body. Still the GH1 shoots 720/60P which is great for slo-mo back to 24/25p. The picture is clear enough for upres to 1080p.

You seem to forget there are many video cameras which give a similar quality image as the 5D2. The Canon HFS10 with all the manual controls is a nice little camera that could. The HPX170 and HV200a are also alternatives, as are the HDV Z5/F1000 cameras.

If you want a camera now, then buy it now. If you feel you will have buyer's regret, don't buy. Technology changes every 2-4 years, if you wait, there's always something better coming round the corner. But how much better and is it worth the wait?

My 2c

5D Mk II - Awesome piece of kit but not really a solid video contender yet.... unless you just want to supply stock and want a stills cam too.

EX1 - Great choice, great cam, 1/2 chips which have a reasonable DOF anyway plus as Deano says chuck in a 35 mm adapter and a bit of Magic Bullet, filmic eat your heart out

Scarlet - Believe it when we see it and what it can actually do

As Drew says there will always be another cam in the distance which looks like it will be better, so depending on your needs / wants to have to take a leap at some point.

By the way, the cam is just the start point, do you have a decent tripod, mic, lenses (if needed) housing, lights..... the list just goes on and on....

Jon

EX1 with Letus extreme and decent lenses ... shallow DOF... throw in some 'Magic bullet' for excellent 'film like' quality...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

You are right Dean, the EX1 with 35mm adapter looks awesome. However, the EX1 to me is way above a consumer camcorder both in size and price. I was thinking something more inline with the $1500 cost and size of the Panasonic GH1 with stock lens. Here is a GH1 video that caught my eye.

http://www.vimeo.com/5264787

I know the Letus mini adapter fits the small consumer hd camcorders, but the camcorder, plus the adapter, plus a lens will probably put you over $1500 and will not be as portable as the GH1. Not sure but I think you need "rails" to support the adapter and lens even with the Letus mini ? I'm in no rush to buy, but the shallow DOF is pretty impressive. I'm looking forward to see what comes out in the next few years.

Thanks for the replies.

The reason for the video is sort of professional. I'll explain briefly.

I live in a very remote part of Africa on one of the big lakes. I collect and export tropical fish when i am not busy with my "real" job. This is a very niche market. It is very limited in terms of market size so we dont ship 10's of thousands of fish out every year. The guys who buy these fish are very much "into" their fish and there are one or two guys who make a living by coming out to the lake every year and writing books with lots of photos etc. Its that market i want to get into.

I have already bought a D2x and Subal housing ( just haven't picked it up yet - but i will get over to the states to get it soon) to start getting used to imaging UW - i know there is a huge learning curve ahead. The goodness is i live on the lake and have a Bauer dive compressor and many sets of dive gear, so its easy to get out to practice every day.

I have always been more partial to video ( mainly because the editing aspect to it interests me immensely ) so have decided i want to put together a set of kit for the job. Getting to this point has been the easy part - deciding how to go forward is where it all gets complex and expensive.

So I've rationalized out that a niche market does exist for these types of videos of the fish in their natural habitat. I know i wont be selling thousands of copies but i think i could sell 500 to 1000 copies per year of the various titles i will produce - so its sort of semi professional. Hence i figure i really need to produce the best footage i can since i want to sell it.

It seems there is no future in staying at SD so it looks like its HD all the way from here forward. Hence i've been considering the better top end of the low end camera market (if that makes sense - i figure a $10,000 camera is a low end camera in this market)

So that brings me to point where i am now confused about which way to go forward. I had it narrowed down to the EX1 but then the Scarlett reared its ugly head, so the waiting game began. But i'm getting sick of waiting. Then come along the 5DM2. I sat back and watched this market development to see if this new cam would be a winner. Nothing much happened in the first 5 months or so , so i figured i should stick with a "real" video camera and a dedicated stills camera ( hence dropping $$$ on an almost new D2x and Subal housing to get started with ) However now magic lantern and canons own firmware changes are out the market looks to be shifting again.

I dont have enough experience with video to know if these new cams are going to be good enough for the sort of video i want to produce and sell. It looks to me from footage we are now seeing from the 5DM2 that a whole new era has started and there is going to be a big market shift away from what we know today.

I am primarily interested in UW footage with only a little above water stuff. I do have a miller fluid head tripod from a mini DV 3 chip cam i bought in the mid 90's. I have no lights , lenses, mics etc ( the little mini DV is long dead and i never replaced it ) so am starting from scratch so can go to any system i like. Its a once off chance to get started all over again so i need to make sure i go in the right direction with this, hence my post.

I am NOT rich like DeanB or Wagsy and have a tight budget to work too. Given the price on a gates housing and a good light setup i would think its going to run 20K USD. I can manage that but cant go much further.

So i am open to ideas.

Thanks

J D

I was thinking something more inline with the $1500 cost and size of the Panasonic GH1 with stock lens. Here is a GH1 video that caught my eye.

 

http://www.vimeo.com/5264787

Given that we are in a uw forum Is there some housing for the GH1 out there?

Thank you

Bye

Hi John,

since your main subject will be skittish chichlids I CAN NOT recommend a 5D MKII to you.

You will get very annoyed of out of focus scenes. It has no continuous AF.

From what I read of your goals you should consider a more consumer grade camcorder like

the Sony XR520 or the new Canons.

Thanks for the replies.

 

I am NOT rich like DeanB or Wagsy

 

J D

... Cannot speak for the wagsmeister but 'Rich' isn't the best way to describe me... Well only in friendliness, warmth, helpfulness and looks...

Dive safe

DeanB

I live in a very remote part of Africa on one of the big lakes. I collect and export tropical fish when i am not busy with my "real" job. This is a very niche market. It is very limited in terms of market size so we dont ship 10's of thousands of fish out every year. The guys who buy these fish are very much "into" their fish and there are one or two guys who make a living by coming out to the lake every year and writing books with lots of photos etc. Its that market i want to get into.

Lake Malawi/Tanganyika's cichlids like C. Moorii are very cool. Likoma and Nkata Bay are very nice places. I loved it there. The Beeb were in Nkata Bay for Planet Earth as you may know.

I have already bought a D2x and Subal housing ( just haven't picked it up yet - but i will get over to the states to get it soon) to start getting used to imaging UW - i know there is a huge learning curve ahead. The goodness is i live on the lake and have a Bauer dive compressor and many sets of dive gear, so its easy to get out to practice every day.

While the cichlids are very cool, as you say, it is an aquarium traded fish with exports. I think there is at least one other doco with cichlids besides Planet Earth. I can't remember the name but Darth Vader James Earl Jones narrated.

I have always been more partial to video ( mainly because the editing aspect to it interests me immensely ) so have decided i want to put together a set of kit for the job. .... i think i could sell 500 to 1000 copies per year of the various titles i will produce - so its sort of semi professional. Hence i figure i really need to produce the best footage i can since i want to sell it.

 

It seems there is no future in staying at SD so it looks like its HD all the way from here forward. Hence i've been considering the better top end of the low end camera market (if that makes sense - i figure a $10,000 camera is a low end camera in this market)

The "low end" of the HD market is AVCHD. However, I think with the lake, you'll need 3xSensor and I think the HDV tape based cameras will do you better which is the "low end" of the professional market. You can have a housing with camera for less than $10k like the Sony Z7/Amphibico package or the Canon XHA1/Gates package. The Z7 low light is quite comparable to the EX1 in terms of noise but lacks the resolution. The XHA1 has the resolution almost to EX1 standard and it's much cheaper than the EX1 or other cameras with available housings. Shooting cychlids means a stronger macro demand, sp look at the available options for the various housings.

So that brings me to point where i am now confused about which way to go forward. I had it narrowed down to the EX1 but then the Scarlett reared its ugly head, so the waiting game began. But i'm getting sick of waiting. Then come along the 5DM2....However now magic lantern and canons own firmware changes are out the market looks to be shifting again.

The 5D2's 35mm sensor has the shallowest DOF of any HD camera. Great for controlled shots but more difficult to control for general macro shooting. For moving fish macro, the 5D2 housing will be more difficult to handle due to the odd cg and lack of mass for inertia.

I dont have enough experience with video to know if these new cams are going to be good enough for the sort of video i want to produce and sell. It looks to me from footage we are now seeing from the 5DM2 that a whole new era has started and there is going to be a big market shift away from what we know today

Well if you know the market, then you have to find out the projected figures of Blu Ray HD players will be out there in 2-3 years and see if your demographic is among that. So far I have not been impressed by the Nikon HD offering. It would be nice if you could use the same lenses as the D2x as a practical approach to equipment planning. I don't think HD distribution on BluRay has taken off yet. A good DVD will be the mainstay for aleast a few more years.

If your budget is 20k and you have to factor in new computer system to handle HD, lights, ports etc. It's not that easy to assemble a system.

... Cannot speak for the wagsmeister but 'Rich' isn't the best way to describe me... Well only in friendliness, warmth, helpfulness and looks...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

Oh come on! you independent construction contractor types are the richest people i know!

rich rich rich...

Oh come on! you independent construction contractor types are the richest people i know!

rich rich rich...

If i knuckled down and got on with it instead of having a load of days off to go diving, shooting stock and working on websites etc... Maybe... There's a recession going on Mikey ... well for some of us...

Dive safe

DeanB

Hmm thats strange then - i dont know how i got the impression DeanB was rich. I've been reading this forum since about 2003 ( i started with digideep first in about 2002 then moved over here at some point along the way - cant remember that far back) and i always had the impression DeanB was a rich playboy type - for some reason i imagined he drives a Ferrari and flies out to dive sites via his private helicopter....... well he does own an EX1 right ?

Lake Malawi/Tanganyika's cichlids like C. Moorii are very cool. Likoma and Nkata Bay are very nice places. I loved it there. The Beeb were in Nkata Bay for Planet Earth as you may know.

Yes i am on Lake Tanganyika

 

While the cichlids are very cool, as you say, it is an aquarium traded fish with exports. I think there is at least one other doco with cichlids besides Planet Earth. I can't remember the name but Darth Vader James Earl Jones narrated.

Yes there is a doco on the Lake Tanganyika called Jewel of the Rift by National Geographic

 

The "low end" of the HD market is AVCHD. However, I think with the lake, you'll need 3xSensor and I think the HDV tape based cameras will do you better which is the "low end" of the professional market. You can have a housing with camera for less than $10k like the Sony Z7/Amphibico package or the Canon XHA1/Gates package. The Z7 low light is quite comparable to the EX1 in terms of noise but lacks the resolution. The XHA1 has the resolution almost to EX1 standard and it's much cheaper than the EX1 or other cameras with available housings. Shooting cychlids means a stronger macro demand, sp look at the available options for the various housings.

 

This is where your advice is invaluable. I dont have any hands on UW with a video camera so hard to know the right way to go about it without making expensive mistake purchases. I had not thought of shooting macro - doubt i would get that close to these fish. But will take the advice on board for consideration. Tape based is a problem for me - its just darn hard to get stuff like that here. Can be done of course with planning and long long lead times to get new tapes. Would prefer to stay with solid state capture - much much more convient and easier to manage then tape.

 

The 5D2's 35mm sensor has the shallowest DOF of any HD camera. Great for controlled shots but more difficult to control for general macro shooting. For moving fish macro, the 5D2 housing will be more difficult to handle due to the odd cg and lack of mass for inertia.

Yes this is my worry with that cam. However some of the footage popping up around the net is stunning. It has its own look to it - something i cant explain in words - you must know what i mean as you've more then likely seen the footage as well

.

Well if you know the market, then you have to find out the projected figures of Blu Ray HD players will be out there in 2-3 years and see if your demographic is among that. So far I have not been impressed by the Nikon HD offering. It would be nice if you could use the same lenses as the D2x as a practical approach to equipment planning. I don't think HD distribution on BluRay has taken off yet. A good DVD will be the mainstay for aleast a few more years.

Yes agree - Nikon is far behind here as usual.

 

If your budget is 20k and you have to factor in new computer system to handle HD, lights, ports etc. It's not that easy to assemble a system.

Yeah 20K doesn't seem to go far in the UW video world yet it took an awful lot of work to earn it. Depressing. What sort of figure do you think is realistic to put together a good quality set of gear ? I know thats an open ended question though. I would rather save a bit more ( read ; about another 200 dives collecting fish ) and get the highest end camera i can. I have no illusion that a good camera will make me a great doco maker by any stretch - i just dont want to waste time taking hours and hours of footage on a low end cam - if your going to do it , do it right , right ?

 

Thanks Drew, apprecaite your time to give me your thoughts.

 

JD

Hzave you read this yet ? http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/gh1.shtml

Maybe the GH1 is a way forward ? AF and subject tracking should be good shooting fish ?? Large sensor so very good in low light, but limited to 720P. Still 720P is better then mini DV which is where i would have been only 4 or 5 years ago.

Is the GH1 worth consideration ? Just need a housing for it ....how about it Mr Gates ? ( we know you read these forums :-) )

Hmm thats strange then - i dont know how i got the impression DeanB was rich. I've been reading this forum since about 2003 ( i started with digideep first in about 2002 then moved over here at some point along the way - cant remember that far back) and i always had the impression DeanB was a rich playboy type - for some reason i imagined he drives a Ferrari and flies out to dive sites via his private helicopter....... well he does own an EX1 right ?

He does!!! He is a rich playboy for sure!

He is even on BBC!

Rich, playboy, celebrity just like Beckham... but a lot fatter

20K budget?!?! thats a ton I would say. Macbook Pro 17", EX1, Gates Housing... should be able to have all that for about 20K... you won't need the super wide port for it, can get lights a couple months later

Having just spent a week shooting whale sharks in Holbox with the 5d2, HF S10, Ex1 and Red...I can offer a pretty fair comparison. First off the 5d2 is a fantastic camera, but no matter how you look at it, ergonomically, its still a DSLR and shooting video in a variety of conditions is more difficult due to its handling and ergonomics when compared to a dedicated video camera. Dont get me wrong, the quality is amazing, but it still really is for the serious still shooter that wants the ability to shoot some quality HD video.

With regards to the EX1, having been a serious EX1 shooter for a year now, it never seems to amaze me. Shooting in murky, plankton filled water, that camera saw whale sharks I didnt even see! It brought out things in the water that the RED camera didnt even do (although as good as the EX1 is, the RED detail is amazing for what it does see). The EX1 system is completely customizable, so depending on the options you want, 20k is realistic...unless you want the Superwide and a set of lights...then you will be over.

The HFs10 is a fantastic camera, and the new L&M housing was so easy to use, and absolutely a gem when it came to the ease of white balancing! Something we have yet to see in compact HD cameras since they came out! However good it may be, its not a production level camera and has many limitations when compared to an EX1 or its equivalent. If you are a serious shooting looking for professional results, the EX1 is definitely the best option as of right now.

Personally, since you already have the D2x, imho, I think you should consider:

1. Dumping the D2x and get the 5D2 and housing. You'll have 2 cameras in 1 and the H264 files, while not perfect, are good enough quality for SD and HD media production. You'll have the budget for strobes and lights and even a 2nd body. You can shoot high quality stills while in video mode which is great if you find behavior you want to document. The 12 min/4GB limit can be problematic. The GH1 doesn't have this issue but the video isn't as good as the 5D2. It does have 60p which is awesome for slowmotion sequences as I've already said.

2. you get the Canon HF-S10. Keep the D2x and get a dedicated video housing. The AVCHD Canon HFS10 while it isn't EX1 class (except in 60i mode, where it's really good being that it's a interlaced codec), it holds up very well and producing DVDs in SD or HD shouldn't be an issue.

You're in the middle of the bush, you can afford 2 cameras and a housing easily with your budget. Since you'll be in the field for months, I'd suggest either going with many spare parts with an electronic housing or get a manual housing. Nothing worse than a dead housing and/or camera and 500 miles away from civilization.

I've always been a fan of electronic housings for ease of operation. But electronics do age and in the tropics, in humid conditions without a dry box, it will break down. Plus they cost more in general.

I know you have a budget of 20k. But this is for a business venture where you still have no real demand so I wouldn't throw in 20k on equipment that'd be overkill for what you need. From what I remember of the cichlids, you will need a very flexible lens to cover all the shots. I suggest you check out Grant Brokensha's clips on Earth Touch at Lake Malawi. That should give you an idea of the ability of the HV200's ability to shoot in the conditions in your area.