Sea Shepherds Ady Gil collides with Japanese whaler

This incident is not about who was at fault in a boating sense. You don't need a video or analysis to know which boat was capable of preventing this incident.

I am enthralled to follow this on the news and watch how this pans out. Hopefully it aids the cause in some way. Not living in a proper country anymore it is hard for me to know how 'aware' people are of the situation. Will this create more awareness that was needed?

I would love to know how it is coming across to people who did not know anything about whaling until this.

BTW, Paul Watson now has no incentive to actually achieve his goal. If Japan capitulated, he would be very depressed. No cause, no TV contract. He might have to become a vegan.

Oh be fair George, he is vegan (which proves that going vegan only doesn't guarantee you will lose weight without the exercise ) and he has many other causes like the seals, sharks etc. He may lose Whale Wars as a series if the world stopped whaling, but I'm sure he's enterprising enough to start another war somewhere else.

And also the Ady Gil was Earthrace, which used biodiesel and thus "95%" carbon neutral, the last bits are bought with credits which aren't the same thing It was the only boat closest to carbon neutral in the area. And now it'll sink if the storms hit.

A friend of mine thinks the Ady Gil was trashed on purpose so they could raise more money. But then again he also believed WMD claims in 2003.

Finally saw the video.. damn, that's a small boat for southern ocean seas....

It creates awareness... many of my friends (worldwide) are now supporters and I bet many many more friends of supporters are and will be...

This is NOT a 'race' issue as some people seem to think/imply its a whaling issue and if grown adults want to do whatever it takes then thats totally up to them. Generals sit back and watch while soldiers fight and thats the way its been in most countries for many years, apart from conscription its mainly a personal choice to join any fight...

Go Sea Shepherd !!!

Dive safe

Dean( ramming speed )B

Finally saw the video.. damn, that's a small boat for southern ocean seas....

Actually it's the best boat in the biz for stormy weather... it can actually go underwater past the big waves! I was on one of those trimarans in 4m swells and it's AWESOME to be submerged for like 5 secs while your mind is thinking are should be seeing birds and not fish! Only problem is the ice bit but I'm sure they reinforced the hull for icebergs but not harpoon ships!

It creates awareness... many of my friends (worldwide) are now supporters and I bet many many more friends of supporters are and will be...

 

This is NOT a 'race' issue as some people seem to think/imply its a whaling issue and if grown adults want to do whatever it takes then thats totally up to them. Generals sit back and watch while soldiers fight and thats the way its been in most countries for many years, apart from conscription its mainly a personal choice to join any fight...

 

Go Sea Shepherd !!!

 

Dive safe

 

Dean( ramming speed )B

Creates awares...hmmmm. Of what? That I'm not sure of.

That SS have an awful lot of money and appear happy to endanger peoples lives in an extremely hostile environment. Then certainly yes. That SS are very media savvy and know how to generate attention and create spectacles that bring in the dollars - most certainly.

Did this increase my understanding, or that of anyone else's for that matter, of the facts and the issues behind whaling? I'm afraid I see no evidence for that at all, anymore than spray-painting obscene graffiti on the walls investment banks would increase my understanding of the gloabal financial crisis.

Are the stocks of the whales hunted by the Japanese and Norwegians threatened? As far as I can see the evidence does not indicate so, equally I see no indication at all that SS is trying to put across any scientific evidence. This is a great shame considering they have such global media attention. It could lead one to suspect they are not really interested in the scientific evidence.

The biggest crisis facing the World's oceans are a) overfishing for cod species, tuna, and the like, and b) bottom trawling and dredging are destroying vast area of reef and other seabed habitats. This is both threatening many species with extinction and dramatically changing benthic and pelagic ecosystems at a fundamental level - possibly irriversibly in some cases. This will have, and is having, profound implications for the health and survival of a great many species and many human communities around the World. By comparison, the 'scientific' killing of a few hundred whales is an extremely trivial issue, whilst it may be emotionally upsetting to many people. Let us not forget that there is no habitat destruction with whaling and no unwanted by-catch whatsoever. Please be clear, I am not saying whaling is a good thing; I am pointing out that, in terms of the health of the environment, the survival of species and the protection of habitats, it is a complete distraction.

There is one other major difference being whaling and most other destructive commercial fishing. Whaling is conducted by 'others' a few Japanese and a few Norwegians mostly. Whereas unsustainable commercial fishing is largely due to all of us - Europe, the US, Russia, Asia. For example, Europe has fished out much of its own stocks to we are now plundering much of West Africa - and destroying the livlihoods of millions of artisanal fishermen and their families. I suspect Discovery would find such a message not quite so palatable to its audiences.

Having read some of Paul Watson's views I don't see evidence of a notable understanding of science, or conservation for that matter, in his thinking. I note that the SS website has considerably more information on PWs biography, the awards he has won, and PW 'Master and Commander' than it has on the reasons for protecting whales. I am afraid I find it depressing that someone so clearly self-obsessed should be able to distract the media from real environmental problems.

Colin

Creates awares...hmmmm. Of what? That I'm not sure of.

 

...Are the stocks of the whales hunted by the Japanese and Norwegians threatened? As far as I can see the evidence does not indicate so, equally I see no indication at all that SS is trying to put across any scientific evidence. This is a great shame considering they have such global media attention. It could lead one to suspect they are not really interested in the scientific evidence.

 

The biggest crisis facing the World's oceans are a) overfishing for cod species, tuna, and the like, and b) bottom trawling and dredging are destroying vast area of reef and other seabed habitats. This is both threatening many species with extinction and dramatically changing benthic and pelagic ecosystems at a fundamental level - possibly irriversibly in some cases. This will have, and is having, profound implications for the health and survival of a great many species and many human communities around the World. By comparison, the 'scientific' killing of a few hundred whales is an extremely trivial issue, whilst it may be emotionally upsetting to many people.

 

...

 

Having read some of Paul Watson's views I don't see evidence of a notable understanding of science, or conservation for that matter, in his thinking. I note that the SS website has considerably more information on PWs biography, the awards he has won, and PW 'Master and Commander' than it has on the reasons for protecting whales. I am afraid I find it depressing that someone so clearly self-obsessed should be able to distract the media from real environmental problems.

 

Colin

Let's not let science get in the way of a good TV show or great "Cause".

Or facts or logic... that'd be distracting!

Let's get to the point. It is an emotional string pizzicato that is in effect.

Creates awares...hmmmm. Of what? That I'm not sure of.

 

Are the stocks of the whales hunted by the Japanese and Norwegians threatened? As far as I can see the evidence does not indicate so, equally I see no indication at all that SS is trying to put across any scientific evidence. This is a great shame considering they have such global media attention. It could lead one to suspect they are not really interested in the scientific evidence.

 

 

 

Colin

It s a touch more complex than that.

The global population of Minke whales, which are the predominately hunted whale, are made up of discreet breeding stocks. The individuals of all the stock travel to the Antarctic during the summer months, where they inter mingle. Whilst some of these stocks could sustain a fishery other can t. Given that there is no way to identify the breeding stock of an individual prior to hunting, building up a sustainable Antarctic fishery is actually very hard.

In addition to this there is considerable concern that Japanese hunting is completely indiscriminate, with genetic studies of whale meat sold in Asian markets showing they originate from a wide variety of species including near extinct species such as blue whales (eg Baker et al Proc Biol Sci. 2000 June 22; 267(1449): 1191–1199.)

This completely unregulated aspect of the whale hunting both in breeding stock and whale species shows that the hunt that the Japanese drive, is another detrimental impact on very vulnerable species.

Whilst over fishing is rightly identified as a more significant impact on overall marine biodiversity, the impacts of whale hunting can t be dismissed out of hand.

On another note, from the camera angle of that shows both the Ady Gil and the Shoona Maru, it is clear that the Japanese vessel veered to starboard with the intention of ramming. Whilst you can question the wisdom of the decision making abroad the Ady Gil this does not detract from the fact that she was intentionally rammed and sunk.

It s a touch more complex than that.

 

The global population of Minke whales, which are the predominately hunted whale, are made up of discreet breeding stocks. The individuals of all the stock travel to the Antarctic during the summer months, where they inter mingle. Whilst some of these stocks could sustain a fishery other can t. Given that there is no way to identify the breeding stock of an individual prior to hunting, building up a sustainable Antarctic fishery is actually very hard.

 

In addition to this there is considerable concern that Japanese hunting is completely indiscriminate, with genetic studies of whale meat sold in Asian markets showing they originate from a wide variety of species including near extinct species such as blue whales (eg Baker et al Proc Biol Sci. 2000 June 22; 267(1449): 1191–1199.)

 

This completely unregulated aspect of the whale hunting both in breeding stock and whale species shows that the hunt that the Japanese drive, is another detrimental impact on very vulnerable species.

 

Whilst over fishing is rightly identified as a more significant impact on overall marine biodiversity, the impacts of whale hunting can t be dismissed out of hand.

 

On another note, from the camera angle of that shows both the Ady Gil and the Shoona Maru, it is clear that the Japanese vessel veered to starboard with the intention of ramming. Whilst you can question the wisdom of the decision making abroad the Ady Gil this does not detract from the fact that she was intentionally rammed and sunk.

I agree, it is more complex. My argument is that SS show no interest in the complexities and demonstrate no understanding of the issues either. My understanding is that the World population of Minke whales has exanded very rapidly, and continues to do so and that 'scientific whaling' does not appear to have reversed, or measurably slowed this population increase.

Your argument about lack of regulation (and enforcement) is a very good one. It is exactly the same problem faced by commercial fishing - albeit on a very much grander scale (and practised by the same nations demonising whaling). Surely that is an argument for better monitoring and regulation, and moratoriums where the evidence supports it - not for staging stunts on the high seas.

Your point about certain minke stocks being unable to withstand fishing is interesting. Can you point me in the direction of any data supporting this.

Cheers

It's great that you bring up Scott Baker's study because it brings up the issue of the Japanese being singled out again as the only whaling nation. If I remember correctly, Scott's DNA survey was done in the 90s and the blue whale tissue sample was from Iceland but sold to Japan which is the largest market for whale products since Iceland and Norway kill more than they need because it's a subsidized industry. Basically the Icelanders broke the moratorium , NOT the Japanese (not that they are innocent I'm sure) but they also buy meat from the Koreans and whale that get caught in nets and die are often sold for meat. The Norwegians outright IGNORED the moratorium since 1993 and hunt the Atlantic minke stock... culling up to 1286 (2010 quota) out of the 100k population estimated by IWC. How many people know this vs that the crew on the Steve Irwin are vegan? I'll leave it to others to ponder why not.

On the boat crash, the other possible scenario is that the Japanese skipper was veering starboard to cut across the stern of the Ady Gil. In racing, you turn to where the wreck was and not where its going to avoid collision. Not knowing the intentions of the Ady Gil which was suppose to cut across the bow of the SM II instead of dangerously cutting engines (or suffering an engine failure...we'll never publicly know the truth on that), the skipper's view which is also obscured by its own water canons and high viewpoint and over turned. If he was really wanting to crush the boat, he wouldn't have turned port side once the collision occurred. The AG was deploying foul lines before. I can't really blame the SMII skipper for taking defensive action. Unfortunately for that crew, those hoses are on from a main pump probably so it kept on shooting and the stern cannons hit the sinking boat. Would the cannons and nets be there if SS didn't throw things at the ships or would the Japanese need to use defensive measures if they didn't have to worry about prop fouling?

Both sides are escalating with more money and risks while the real issue is being cemented by Japanese nationalism. Tell me how effective that is?

If the effort is to bring awareness to the Japanese people, does anyone really think this will convince and ingratiate the Japanese public into pressuring the new government? It worked so well on the Norwegians.

I'd say Paul Watson's efforts are working well. Millions of people more are debating this very issue, and whether they choose one side or the other, it's on their minds. It doesn't matter that a million people think you're an idiot if 200,000 join the cause.

Having spent months with Paul in person, I would like to go on record as saying that he does NOT want whaling to continue, and to suggest that is ridiculous. He's got a huge list of things he wants stopped, and this is just one of them.

By the way, here's the PDF of the paper that Drew linked to. It took more than 2 clicks to get, so I'll make it easy for you.

isa05_proceeding_70446.PDF

I'd say Paul Watson's efforts are working well. Millions of people more are debating this very issue, and whether they choose one side or the other, it's on their minds. It doesn't matter that a million people think you're an idiot if 200,000 join the cause.

I have now read the article. As suspected, there isn't widespread support for whaling amongst the Japanese public, mostly no opinion. Could it be that the actions of Paul Watson actually creates resistance to the natural death of the whale market in Japan? In other words, would those who have no opinion choose to support the industry out of patriotic/nationalistic beliefs?

The best way to end it is the 200,000 you get to join the cause are Japanese.

Eric,

Thanks for providing the composite video - that is really helpful.

I am not interested in debating the pros and cons of "direct action" but I AM very interested as a captain and offshore worker in the specifics of the vessel collision.

As someone who is keenly interested in protecting the lives of people at sea it makes me very angry to see something like this collision happen. People's lives are at VERY real risk (as Eric knows from being there), and putting people in a situation where they might go in the water (both the Japanese and SS) is wrong.

James

I echo that. Very helpful Eric.

The paper does very eloquently summarize views expressed quite widely. Particularly pertinent are the points regarding key anti-whaling nations stating they oppose whaling irrespective of scietific stock assessment finding, for ethical reasons. This, in my opinion, reduces our approach to conservation to...this species is cute and very marketable, therefore vast amounts of money are to be spent on protecting it....whereas these species are ugly and not at all telegenic... they're vital to the ecosystem but who cares. I might find this 'whales are intelligent so they shouldn't be killed' argument more compelling if the same argument was advanced as vociferously in respect of intensive pig farming or battery chicken farming. Nor do I see the same argument - that they are too intelligent to kill - being advanced to prevent the culling of mink in the British countryside either - rightly many would argue. I have yet to see any real evidence that a minke whale is more intelligent that a pig, or a cow for that matter.

I'm afraid that, as far as I can see, Paul watson is not a conservationist as I understand the term. He is an animal rights campaigner for whales, throwing large amounts of money at campaigns to protect a few individuals in the same way as rich old ladies leave vast sums to stray cats or abandoned donkeys.

I guess if that is something you believe in then go ahead and donate. However the greatest effect of ones donations will be in preserving Sea Shepherd, not the environment. If the emotive 'we like whales' argument is removed then I doubt supporting SS would make the top 10,000 best uses of your money to save the planet. But of course that's just my view. ps - I really do like whales, and am very glad there are more around than there used to be.

Colin

I'd say Paul Watson's efforts are working well. Millions of people more are debating this very issue, and whether they choose one side or the other, it's on their minds. It doesn't matter that a million people think you're an idiot if 200,000 join the cause.

Yes Eric, but that's the issue. Are all the campaigns for recruiting, fundraising or trying to stop whaling? The evidence seems to prove they are mutually exclusive. These campaigns don't help the cause to stop whaling in Japan. In fact, it gives the Fisheries Agency of Japan and the political old guard ammunition to support this based on national pride. I fail to see any good coming out of the campaigns for the whales or the Japanese.

Now if these campaigns are thinly veiled fundraising, recruitment and recognition tools, then they work very well.

Their campaign STOPS whales being killed ... Let other org's like Greenpeace continue their 'peaceful' protests and 'hearts & minds' offensives but while the SS crew or out there they are slowing the number of whales being killed... If we had to rely on talking, these sentient beings would be being slaughtered in greater numbers. If the SS crew stops one whale being killed then thats a bonus and worth the money in my humble...

As i said the 'heroes' on board the SS vessels are grown adults making up their own minds and are much braver than most of us here (including me) for getting out there and doing something about it ...

And if old spinsters want to send their money to SS or the cats protection league thats totally up to them its funding no matter how much you look down at it...

People can sit there, type and throw facts and figures and scientific theory about what's happening, thats their views and it looks like they know what their talking about... To them But to me the SS crews direct action is what most of us have been wanting to do for years but are to scared to be 'un PC' to do it .... Look at the Soldiers shooting poachers in Africa and India wheres the uproar about that, the poachers are human are they not and some with families to feed... The poachers know the law and they try their luck some are not so lucky...

I expect we've all got a priority list of 'what should come first' and 'where peoples funds should go' as someone said earlier whales are not the shepherd's only fight, just a big one of many ...

Dive safe

DeanB

I'd say Paul Watson's efforts are working well. Millions of people more are debating this very issue, and whether they choose one side or the other, it's on their minds. It doesn't matter that a million people think you're an idiot if 200,000 join the cause.

 

Having spent months with Paul in person, I would like to go on record as saying that he does NOT want whaling to continue, and to suggest that is ridiculous. He's got a huge list of things he wants stopped, and this is just one of them.

 

By the way, here's the PDF of the paper that Drew linked to. It took more than 2 clicks to get, so I'll make it easy for you.

I've been through the document.

REason n°1 why the Japanese keep whaling seem to be very simple. Sea food, pelagics and fishes in general is part of a huge business.

Their biggest fear in an effort to stop whaling, is to face an unsustainable situation where they could be limited by transnational organisation in their ability to fish or trade other species such as tuna.

Can you imagine a world where we would condamn Japan for trading Tuna?

This is not an option for them. For this reason, Whaling and enforcing a moratorium in the antartic sanctuary prevents them to be limited on other part of a HUGE business.

I've been through the document.

REason n°1 why the Japanese keep whaling seem to be very simple. Sea food, pelagics and fishes in general is part of a huge business.

Their biggest fear in an effort to stop whaling, is to face an unsustainable situation where they could be limited by transnational organisation in their ability to fish or trade other species such as tuna.

 

Can you imagine a world where we would condamn Japan for trading Tuna?

This is not an option for them. For this reason, Whaling and enforcing a moratorium in the antartic sanctuary prevents them to be limited on other part of a HUGE business.

That correlation is a bit of a stretch. Japan was ready to dump whaling in the 80s to maintain fishing rights in US waters. They feared sanctions. Since then, they lost out on the quotas anyways and the US government under Bush and Clinton backed off sanctions against the Japanese for whaling, because they realized the Japanese were not going to back down now that the fishing rights were no longer on the table. Hence you see a big grab for fishing rights elsewhere in the world.

Sund does remind us of a very important point. The IWC was conceived as a conservation and sustainability organization, not a preservation organization. There is no economic sense for Japan to continue whaling for 500 people.This is national pride stemmed from the 85 deal with the US. Norway, as a member of the EU, is unilaterally ignoring the moratorium and hunting on a smaller population of minkes. How is it no one is seiging Sandefjord, Norway for its planned 1286 quota this year? Is it because the Norwegians have the support of the EU? Even at the highest point of the protests against the Norwegians, where SS sank ships, there was not as much financial or popular support for SS tactics. Perhaps it is the sign of the times whereby satellite transmission of video clips has an almost immediate effect vs in the 90s where beta and VHS tape were still king. Or is it something else? Why is it the UK which always protests the Japanese whaling says almost nothing about their North Sea neighbor's hunting of minkes, which is often closer to the UK than Norway?

Furthermore, it is amazing how there is lack of focus on the Japanese trial of the Tokyo Two, Junichi Sato and Tori Suzuki, members of Greenpeace, who have been arrested for trying to expose to the Japanese the misuse of tax money in support of whaling. In typical Japanese manner, the trial is stacked against them and they face 10 years in prison for doing what they believe in... without risk of injury to anyone but themselves. That is truly fighting for the cause, not this hollywoodized heroics that does nothing but give the FAJ the public sympathy it needs to use tax payer money to support a dead industry. Yushin, the one whale restaurant that is owned by ICR closed in 2008 due to lack of business. If logic is to prevail in these matters, then the questions should be why the Japanese government insists on continuing a failed business with no real value?

the questions should be why the Japanese government insists on continuing a failed business with no real value?

People have been asking that question for 20 years, but mostly for reasons that have nothing to do with whaling or conservation.