why buy in the UK

I have recently housed my MK2 and added a new pair of YS250's. Looking at the limited stockists in the UK for my little bundle of:

1 X Sea and Sea MDX 5DII Pro

2 x Sea and Sea YS250 Pro's

1 x Dual synch cable

a very well known UK store was £4691 GBP with a possible 2 week wait for delivery as not all items were in stock.

Compare this with the same products, purchased in Japan from another well known store, delivered by Fed Ex to my door within 4 days for a total of £3292 GBP delivery, including import duty and vat. A total saving of £1400 GBP. Ok so I wont get a worldwide cover on my warantee, which hopefully I wont need anyway. Is it really worth paying £1400 more. I think not.

I was given a small discount from the Japanese store as I am seen as a good customer having purchased other rigs from them previously, but I am not getting discounts anything like what UK suppliers get. Is there really that much mark up on products sold in the UK. It certainly does not draw me into the UK stores to part with my cash. I know that if you buy in the UK you can call them if there is a problem and if you need to return anything the postage will be cheaper, but saving as much as I have I am totally not concerned with that. Do others pay these over inflated prices to buy their rigs or do you shop elsewhere too.

Stew

Stew

Unless you're a Russion billionare money is always going to be an issue.

We all want / need the best "Bang for our Buck"

If it's a small saving then we need to weigh up the pro's and con's regarding warranty and returns.

There's also a loyalty issue in supporting our local suppliers, if we don't there won't be any in the near future.

But 1400 quid is a huge ammount in anyone's language and makes the choice a no-brainer.

That's a trip to Egypt for a weeks livaboard plus enough change to get a new sigma 70mm.

My problem is I have a conscience and as such feel it's my responsibility to buy locally. however £1400 GBP would definately make me think again.

Nige Wade

Wow that is a really significant difference (especially after tax). Although you still end up with a Sea & Sea!

I do know that certain brands have a bigger mark up in the UK, compared with other countries. While others have a very similar UK price (if you take off VAT, or add import tax) to the overseas price. I have heard Sea & Sea mentioned before and not being the most competitively priced brand in the UK. That said, I do not know anyone who is selling UW photo equipment in the UK, who is making loads of money, driving flashy cars or living in a big house. Most businesses are pretty much make only enough to keep going.

I have bought all my major UW photo kit (cameras, housings, lenses, ports, strobe etc) face to face from dealers. I have never bought anything on the phone, mail-order or internet. And while this won't always be the cheapest price in the world, I have benefitted countless times over the last 15-20 years from this. Dealers I have used have often lent me strobes, cameras, housings, lenses, ports when I have needed them, for example when kit has gone down just before a trip or when I have needed extra equipment for certain shots or just being able to take a spare strobe as back up on a trip.

Dealers are also great hubs of information and contacts. On countless occasions I have benefitted from dealers introducing me.

I pity the dealers on this issue - because they all have many stories of a customer who came to them for a quote - only to buy elsewhere and then come to them a few months later demanding help with gear that does not work, because they are the UK dealer.

You can see the other side of this issue here:

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38083

Alex

Wow that is a really significant difference (especially after tax). Although you still end up with a Sea & Sea!

Now Now lol

I have bought all my major UW photo kit (cameras, housings, lenses, ports, strobe etc) face to face from dealers. I have never bought anything on the phone, mail-order or internet.

Is this just from UK dealers or from stores in the US as well.

And while this won't always be the cheapest price in the world, I have benefitted countless times over the last 15-20 years from this. Dealers I have used have often lent me strobes, cameras, housings, lenses, ports when I have needed them, for example when kit has gone down just before a trip or when I have needed extra equipment for certain shots or just being able to take a spare strobe as back up on a trip.

But I suspect that is because you are Alex Mustard and not because you purchased your rig from them. I would not have thought that any old Tom, Dick or Arry could ask for a favour like that and get the same kindness from there chosen supplier.

You can see the other side of this issue here:

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38083

Alex

Of course there will aways be a horror story for every fairytale, but as I had a hassle free experience when I purchased another rig from this store a few years ago I feel that I would have been silly to try and be loyal to my " local store " and not make a massive saving. Had the saving only been £200GBP I still think that I would have ordered it from Japan. £200 is £200 and I would rather have it in my pocket than in theirs.

Whether right or wrong, my business philosophy is smaller profit margin, sell more and make a living. Big profit margin and your lucky to get a sell, and the kids go hungry. Sometimes companies price themselves out of the game. Obviousy there is not a massive market out there for high end UW kit and if there isnt enough profit at the end of the day then business' would not exist, so there does need to be an in between price. I appreciate that. There are not too may stockists of Sea and Sea housings within the UK so this could be a reason why stockists feel they can warrant having a high mark up on Sea and Sea products. ( thats if they do have a high mark up of course ). I had priced up other housing manufacturers and the UK prices were quite competative in comparison.

Stew

I do not know anyone who is selling UW photo equipment in the UK, who is making loads of money, driving flashy cars or living in a big house.

 

Alex

No that'll be the Marine Biologists and PRO UW photographers that are doing that.

Stew

I have bought all my major UW photo kit (cameras, housings, lenses, ports, strobe etc) face to face from dealers. I have never bought anything on the phone, mail-order or internet. And while this won't always be the cheapest price in the world, I have benefitted countless times over the last 15-20 years from this. Dealers I have used have often lent me strobes, cameras, housings, lenses, ports when I have needed them, for example when kit has gone down just before a trip or when I have needed extra equipment for certain shots or just being able to take a spare strobe as back up on a trip.

Dealers are also great hubs of information and contacts. On countless occasions I have benefitted from dealers introducing me.

 

I pity the dealers on this issue - because they all have many stories of a customer who came to them for a quote - only to buy elsewhere and then come to them a few months later demanding help with gear that does not work, because they are the UK dealer.

Great points, Alex. Buying local usually gets you better service when you need something quick or a loaner etc. They can also deal with questions about the rig and fix crap. That's always been the differential between local and non-local sources. One also has to consider the cost of having a business in London or wherever the real estate is higher vs a warehouse in the desert.

Many choose to save money and take the risk and get away with it most of the time. But should anything go wrong, it can get frustrating and expensive. I buy most of my lenses from my local stores, because I get to test several copies and choose the one I like most, and if I don't like it, they'll take it back without restocking. On average, I pay 20-30% more due to taxes and the cost of having a store factored in. But I think it's worthwhile to get the best product I can get for my money.

Save the money and take the risk or spend the extra cash and have better service that MUST come with it. Of course if the local dealer isn't known for great customer service, then there's not much to think about.

No that'll be the Marine Biologists and PRO UW photographers that are doing that.

 

 

Stew

So what exactly am I doing wrong???

Not sure if I'm allowed to comment here but I will, strike me down oh great wetpixel if I talk out of turn!

I have made a point of ensuring that Nauticam UK products are pegged completely to the US$ recommended retail rates in order to try to combat this kind of mentality. I have only been able to do this really because my overheads are relatively small and my house is like a cardboard city. Unfortunately I have to charge an extra 17.5% on top of these which goes straight to the UK government. I'd love not to have to do this but that is the law in the UK.

Equally, I have discovered to my dismay that overheads in the UK are very high. For example, import duties into the UK range from 4.5% for aluminum housings to 8% for optical glass (Taiwan is less than 2% with no VAT for example), courier and shipping costs are very high (posting a package inside the UK is generally more than 3 times more expensive than posting the same package international to the US from Taiwan), and I have just written a cheque for £1500 to my accountant for a few hours work, insurances are through the roof, dive shows are very expensive (3 square meters for £700, go figure), advertising in UK dive magazine costs upwards of £1000 for a minimal advert, website setup and running, credit card fees. Other dealers operating from business premises and employing a staff base have all these additional overheads to cover alongside National Insurance contributions, pension contributions, insurances yadiyadiya.

I'm very glad that you got yourself a bargain and feel such a sense of self satisfaction that you wish to share it with us, but I think it is fair to say that if you go along to any UK dive show, as Alex M points out, you'll find that none of the dealers in UW photographic equipment are arriving in pimped up bullet-proof hummers or purple Lambourghini Murcielagos.

On a personal level, I'm doing this to sustain a passion and I certainly won't be able to quit my full time day job anytime in the foreseeable future despite the popularity of the brand I am representing and the hours and hours of hard work I have put in.

Rant over ..... I did used to feel exactly the same as you before I became involved in the 'game'. Now I fully understand why it is that many UK dealers need to charge the amounts they do, not out of any inherent greed, simply out of a need to cover their costs and put food on the table.

Whether right or wrong, my business philosophy is smaller profit margin, sell more and make a living.

Stew

Stew

This is fine in a mass market product but not so easy in a specialist market with a very finite potential customer base (customers have to be divers and then interested in high quality photography - that's pretty limited). Personally I'd love a 40% mark up but this is far above most margins in the photographic industry let alone underwater photographic industry. My prices are similar to those charged throughout Europe because to lower them would be unrealistic and would make no business sense at all. Also you have to consider that some companies use an importer/distributor, have shipping and distribution costs plus the cost of holding spares, so circumventing this lot may substantially lower the initial price. And as for Alex being loaned gear because of who he is, well I too loan gear out to some customers, let them try gear (although I do have a limited set of bits to try - its too expensive to hold much 'demo' stock) and generally try to offer help if needed. Selling this sort of high end gear requires good service, advice and general attentiveness to customers needs and requirements.

OK my 2cc's worth.

FWIW I purchased two housings and three strobes from from a (I guess 'local') UK supplier.

One housing developed a crack in it and was sent back to the manufacturer, other than charging me for their assistance the UK supplier did stuff all.

Two of the three strobes died within the next two years, just outside of warranty they got returned (for which I paid) and the recommendation came back that they were both uneconomic to repair and offering me a small reduction on the purchase of 'new' replacements.

I replaced the whole lot, the housing from Reef Video where Ryan even offered to help me over the strobes and two new strobes from Alsky72 (who was not involved in any of the other transactions and seemed a stand up guy).

So buying local did nothing for me at all, the 'service' I had was awful at best.

Paul C

I am really pleased to see a lively debate on this issue, with contributions from all sides. Thanks for starting it, Stew.

This is not a UK specific issue - so those from other countries feel free to contribute too.

Just to clarify one point.

I have benefitted countless times over the last 15-20 years from this. Dealers I have used have often lent me strobes, cameras, housings, lenses, ports when I have needed them

 

But I suspect that is because you are Alex Mustard and not because you purchased your rig from them. I would not have thought that any old Tom, Dick or Arry could ask for a favour like that and get the same kindness from there chosen supplier.

While I have always been called Alex Mustard! I was actually citing examples from before I had any sort of reputation in underwater photography. I am sure others, who would not consider themselves a "name" would back me up that more than one of the UK retailers has a reputation for this sort of generosity to loyal customers.

Alex

This is not a UK specific issue - so those from other countries feel free to contribute too.

I do not live near a dedicated UW Photo Dealer, so basically I need to purchase things on-line, have no choice. Dealt with pretty much most of those --> over there. I could go to B&H, for example, but it really is not the same thing.

I am also not close by to dive shops, there are a couple, and they do mark things up kind of high. I do my best to purchase things there, and will purchase dive computers, BCDs and other things. I am not overly fond of the service or help for the most part and to date it is not worth the premium from what I have seen, and I think it is the function of the shop themselves. If I found another local shop, I would try them. As to photo things, I can head to the city and there is only one real photo shop near me outside of the city that is a real camera shop and not a box shop or an offshoot of questionable stores. And I do buy things there, though they are more pricey than if I went on-line, though even then it is difficult to justify the trade-off.

The best service I have is when dealing with manufacturers directly in the last few years. Could be I got lucky each time, but my experience with the customer service at these companies has been great. Go figure.

So what exactly am I doing wrong???

You just have the privilege of selling bling housings, and Harald gets to have the bling

As to the topic of the local vs non-local, it's important to differentiate "local" as in same country or even continent vs non-local as in intercontinental shopping. Having the company on the same continent usually means overnight shipping really is overnight and is less than $100 for 10lbs package. Intercontinental shipping can be up to 5-6 days and costs up to $500 for the same package. Should anything go wrong, the intercontinental purchase will get very expensive to return the housing for repairs/rectification etc. Plus the time difference could be an issue, as it was with Robert's intercontinental purchase, especially if one has questions about using the housing.

I don't know of any retailer in any industry which has a 100% record of getting orders right. One dealer hasn't sent my stuff back since Feb. I don't pursue it because I think that particular equipment is a waste of time but the point is this dealer is a retailer with a great reputation, and everyone messes up. At least buying products (ie S&S housings from a UK retailer), you have the dealer to deal with the manufacturer. This is especially true when it comes to manufacturers who don't have ANY retail customer support or work in a different language altogether. Nor are all dealers the same in terms of customer service, especially if the customer is a PITA like me !

Drew - you make a valid argument. I have worked with some of the most reputable retailers in the business and they still mess things up. We have to admit that the gear we are buying is not made in bulk and is distributed (usually) by much smaller operations who don't have huge logistics departments like Amazon.

However, to be a devil's advocate, I plan far in advance for my trips, so if the buying and shipping takes an extra month (or even two) then I am fine.

You get what you pay for. Buying things in my neck of the woods (NYC) requires a high premium and if I got a large amount of savings from buying from Hong Kong, even if there was a hassle, then I think I would do it.

Stewsmith - who did you purchase from? Was it an easy transaction? Do you speak Japanese or was it all in English?

Thanks,

.....

Whether right or wrong, my business philosophy is smaller profit margin, sell more and make a living. Big profit margin and your lucky to get a sell, and the kids go hungry.

Just out of interest, what do you sell?

Here's my 2p. Everyone has 24 hours in a day. How we spend it can mean a lot of work for a greater or lesser return. Ultimately I'm lazy and want the maximum reward for minimum effort and gear my efforts around this model.

Is it working? Historical performance can never be a judge of future return, but so far this year I have raised less invoices but turnover & profit are greater than this time last year. Less invoices but higher value. My conclusion is yes, it's working - for now.

Just out of interest, what do you sell?

I sell myself. No I am not a male hooker, and I doubt I would make much money from doing that. I am a site manager of construction sites in the UK and work for a well known south coast company. I could get much more per hour than I charge, but I know other site managers that do charge a lot more and get nowhere near the amount of work that I do. I am not selling myself cheap by any standards and earn a extremely good living and have done for the past ten years. There is a big recession in the UK building sector at the moment and I have work more or less secured for the for the next 24 months, which a lot of site managers would give their right hand for at the moment.

Stew

If I had a job that provided a decent wedge or a partner that supplied me with top-notch pocket money or a winning lottery ticket then I'd buy in the UK... Well I haven't so like Stew I'd probably take the risk with the import and the £££'s savings :-)

Dive safe

DeanB

If the gear is manufacutered in the US or Japan then I've found that it is often at least 25% cheaper and sometimes up to 50% cheaper purchasing it abroad over purchasing it in the UK. Exchange rates are always in flux so it must be very hard for importers to pitch their prices but when you can get that kind of discount on a product that can sometimes cost £x,000 it can end up a LOT of money. I'm certain that UW housing retailers don't make a whole bunch of cash, but then neither do most photographers/videographers! I've generally never found that I get better service buying locally (or within the UK). In fact I've often found I get better service from a supplier 5,000 miles away than one 15 miles away.

Cheers, Simon

Exchange rates are always in flux so it must be very hard for importers to pitch their prices

Cheers, Simon

Which is why I've switched to quoting in Euros and charging out at the prevailing exchange rate upon import. Not as clear cut nor as easy but the only way that the customer gets as good a deal as I can achieve - otherwise I'd have to add in a 'fudge' factor to take account of fluctuations which are unpredictable.

On another note, my advice to potential customers is to try to get to handle as many different makes of housings as possible before making a decision. This is not terribly easy in the UK at the moment but will become a great deal more difficult if there are fewer importers which I personally think would be a pity, especially as the alternative would be to rely on web reviews (which, however good cannot replace actually handling an item) or finding someone who has already imported a similar item. Mistakes in buying can be very expensive and whilst the people who have responded in this thread are clearly experienced and know about equipment, those with less experience will find making objective decisions without the opportunity to handle equipment rather more difficult.

I understand Paul. It must be incredibly difficult trying to make a living out of the UW housing supply business, particularly when you have to hold stock costing £xx,000's at the same time as having a very small market to sell into! I wish financially I could do more to support UK suppliers, but when the difference in price on my last purchase was equivalent to a two week dive trip it is very hard to justify for me financially.

Cheers, Simon