Light Positions

Hello all:

I will be using Lights for the first time shooting underwater. Just put in an order for a couple of L&M 4000's. Having searched the archives, I couldn't find anywhere that describes where to position my lights while shooting W/A or Macro.

Is there anywhere there is a discussion regarding light positions? If so, could you please direct me to it. If not, what is the general rule of thumb here?

Being in land locked Utah, USA. There aren't many underwater videographers to bounce my questions off of. So the members of Wetpixel have been of great help to me. thanks for your help in advance.

Dustin

Hey Dustin,

You are certainly focusing on an important issue. Everyone knows that lights are needed but you rarely hear discussions of lighting placement underwater while it is always a major subject when shooting topside. Not sure what light arm you are using and everyone has their preferences. Some use the ultra light arms while others, like myself, prefer the loc tight arms or arms similar to them.

One thing to make sure of, and this can be affected by the port you are using and how wide its angle is, is to avoid placing your arms/lights too far forward as they can sometimes get in, and thus ruin, your frame.

I have not used the 4000s but have been told by other users that they have a nice diffused light. However, if you see that there are any hotspots, try separating the two lights so that the diffused edges slightly overlap rather than have both aimed directly at the subject. This will provide a nice spread of light and avoid hot spotting.

If you have a 3rd light, you can place it, unseen, behind a subject or reef for some nice backlighting effects as well. With two lights, you can position one aiming down from above the subject while using the spread of the second light more directly. This would be useful in medium or macro shots.

Remember that even the best of underwater lights have limited throw in the water, often only a few feet, so for really wide angle shots of reefs or things in the distance, your lights will be of little use.

While everyone has there own working preferences, if I see something I want to film, I will generally turn on my lights and get roughly the position that I think I will need before I settle down in front of the subject to film. Settling down first and then turning on your lights can often frighten your subject as opposed to gradually bringing them into play.

I'm sure others here will have much more to contribute as well.

Steve

Hey Dustin,

You are certainly focusing on an important issue. Everyone knows that lights are needed but you rarely hear discussions of lighting placement underwater while it is always a major subject when shooting topside. Not sure what light arm you are using and everyone has their preferences. Some use the ultra light arms while others, like myself, prefer the loc tight arms or arms similar to them.

One thing to make sure of, and this can be affected by the port you are using and how wide its angle is, is to avoid placing your arms/lights too far forward as they can sometimes get in, and thus ruin, your frame.

I have not used the 4000s but have been told by other users that they have a nice diffused light. However, if you see that there are any hotspots, try separating the two lights so that the diffused edges slightly overlap rather than have both aimed directly at the subject. This will provide a nice spread of light and avoid hot spotting.

If you have a 3rd light, you can place it, unseen, behind a subject or reef for some nice backlighting effects as well. With two lights, you can position one aiming down from above the subject while using the spread of the second light more directly. This would be useful in medium or macro shots.

Remember that even the best of underwater lights have limited throw in the water, often only a few feet, so for really wide angle shots of reefs or things in the distance, your lights will be of little use.

While everyone has there own working preferences, if I see something I want to film, I will generally turn on my lights and get roughly the position that I think I will need before I settle down in front of the subject to film. Settling down first and then turning on your lights can often frighten your subject as opposed to gradually bringing them into play.

I'm sure others here will have much more to contribute as well.

Steve

Thanks Steve. I bought the lights from Backscatter, and they recommended the ULCS arms, as the flex arms they say won't hold these lights well because of the weight. I already have two 12 inch ULCS bouyancy arms (one each side). Do think this will be awkward not having 2 sections? What is the ideal length? for Wide Angle, I mainly shoot with a 15mm fisheye canon on a 5d mark ii. For macro, I plan to use a 50mm or the 100mm.

Dustin

Dustin, Those arms are certainly bullet proof but I hated wasting time having to adjust them to fit the shot which is why I went back to the loc tight arms. Actually, now I am using similar arms sold by Nocturnal Lights. If you stick with the ULCS arms, you will probably want two sections for each arm so that positioning and length will be more easily adjusted. I really don't recall the length of my current arms, but, at least 12" is necessary. By the way, back in the day I was using the loc tight arms in the very strong currents of Tahiti and the Cocos Islands with heavier lights than the 4000s and never had a problem with them being forced out of position by the current.

Steve

Dustin, Those arms are certainly bullet proof but I hated wasting time having to adjust them to fit the shot which is why I went back to the loc tight arms. Actually, now I am using similar arms sold by Nocturnal Lights. If you stick with the ULCS arms, you will probably want two sections for each arm so that positioning and length will be more easily adjusted. I really don't recall the length of my current arms, but, at least 12" is necessary. By the way, back in the day I was using the loc tight arms in the very strong currents of Tahiti and the Cocos Islands with heavier lights than the 4000s and never had a problem with them being forced out of position by the current.

Steve

Steve,

How do you like those arms? I looking at them now online.

http://www.nocturnallights.com/photo-and-v...inch-45-cm.html

assuming you like them, would you go for the 12 inch or the 18 inch arms? I have to mount the lights to a ikelite housing? So I would need the the quick release the clamp, and then a hybrid adaptor to connect the light, as it has a ball mount. What do you think of that setup?

Hey Dustin,

Yep, those are the ones I have been using. They have drilled holes for drainage which saves you from doing it. Every system seems to have a different way of mounting so if it works for you, go for it. They aren't as squeaky as the loc tight arms and I think the loc tights are just a bit easier to move around but they're pretty much the same and a lot less expensive.

Steve

Hey Dustin,

Yep, those are the ones I have been using. They have drilled holes for drainage which saves you from doing it. Every system seems to have a different way of mounting so if it works for you, go for it. They aren't as squeaky as the loc tight arms and I think the loc tights are just a bit easier to move around but they're pretty much the same and a lot less expensive.

Steve

What size would you recommend? the 18 or 12's? considering the weight of the lights. and Current I will be in. Heading to Maldives and Komodo the next two trips, so I will have some current.

How long have you been using yours?

I used the loc tight arms for a great many years and the Nocturnal arms for about 8 months. If I were you, and if I could, I would go to my local dealer if possible and try them out. The loc tights can be removed individually so you can set your own arm length. For the Nocturnals, I use a 12 " arm and they seem just fine for me. But its your call.

Steve

I used the loc tight arms for a great many years and the Nocturnal arms for about 8 months. If I were you, and if I could, I would go to my local dealer if possible and try them out. The loc tights can be removed individually so you can set your own arm length. For the Nocturnals, I use a 12 " arm and they seem just fine for me. But its your call.

Steve

Thats the problem. Here is Utah, there are dive shops but they don't carry anything for photo and video stuff that isn't the entry level, cheap, easy sell stuff. So I have to rely on what I read here......

Do think with the nocturnal arms and mixing them with a ball clamps it will hold in place good enough? It seems to me, that if I have a nocturnal arm that is attached to a ball and clamp on both the housing and the light side, bending the arm would also move the clamp. That would seem counter productive to me. What do you think?

My brother an I like the flex arms as well, we use the Fantasea ones and put two 12" together for a wider spread (so total length of each arm is about 22" because you take the top and bottom off of one of the arms). We did that because we typically shore dive and have a lot of particulate in our water here, so we found it keeps the backscatter out of the light in the water between the lens and subject, obviously its not that important for macro. And when we shoot macro we found Steve's suggestion of one light overhead and the other directed at the subject works well.

Deeznutz78, are the same Dustin who was in Quest a little back about diving a cave in Utah?

My brother an I like the flex arms as well, we use the Fantasea ones and put two 12" together for a wider spread (so total length of each arm is about 22" because you take the top and bottom off of one of the arms). We did that because we typically shore dive and have a lot of particulate in our water here, so we found it keeps the backscatter out of the light in the water between the lens and subject, obviously its not that important for macro. And when we shoot macro we found Steve's suggestion of one light overhead and the other directed at the subject works well.

 

Deeznutz78, are the same Dustin who was in Quest a little back about diving a cave in Utah?

Don't think that was me. Although I have dived in the 'cave' you are referring to. It is called 'the crater' at the homestead it is about 15 minutes outside of park city. It isn't really a cave. Its about 75 feet wide and goes down to about 63 feet. The water is about 95 degrees year round. So this is where open water students get certified during the winter. Fun to do once. But that's it.

Thanks for your input.

I used the loc tight arms

If he uses loc tight he wont be able to move a thing, I think that the word that you were thinking was loc line.

You're probably right regarding the name, but why would you say they can't be moved? Don't understand.

Steve

You're probably right regarding the name, but why would you say they can't be moved? Don't understand.

Steve

Loc tight versus Loc Line Steve, just reading what you wrote.

having fun,

Steve

We have a pair of Solo 4000s on a Gates XA10 housing. We started with the 3/4" Locline arms. Underwater they are ok in moderate current, it really would have to be a ripping current to move them around. Out of the water they are not near strong enough to support the weight of the lights. We fold them over the top of the housing. I am considering putting them on standard strobe arms. I like the idea of a 9" + 7" I-Das set per side for flexibility in positioning. But there is no doubt for easy positioning Locline is really simple.

Excellent point, out of the water, neither brand of arm is strong enough to support a heavy light topside. That said, before I pass up my system, I always bend the lights in so they are resting on top of the housing. This prevents a crewman from grabbing the system by the arms and protects both the lights and my port. I don't really care that they won't stand up topside, it is what they do under the water for me that counts. And yep folks, I always forget 'Locline' as fall back on loc tight. Just senile I guess.

Steve

PS Good to see you back Steve W. Hope all is well.

Dustin, are you using a DSLR housing with a glass dome? Loc-Line arms plus lights plus negative housing/dome may mean an overly negative rig. I believe the 4k are near neutral. To compensate, you may wish to use arms that provide positive buoyancy. I bought carbon fiber arms from H20-Tools which make my big superdome and housing just negative neutral. I'd calculate your rig's buoyancy weight and then calculate what sort of compensation is needed. There are other ways of setting up compensation with foam inserts like Stix and even divinycell foam.

The nice thing about solid arms besides buoyancy compensation is the ability to either push the lights farther away from the lens, reducing backscatter in turbid waters.

Dustin, are you using a DSLR housing with a glass dome? Loc-Line arms plus lights plus negative housing/dome may mean an overly negative rig. I believe the 4k are near neutral. To compensate, you may wish to use arms that provide positive buoyancy. I bought carbon fiber arms from H20-Tools which make my big superdome and housing just negative neutral. I'd calculate your rig's buoyancy weight and then calculate what sort of compensation is needed. There are other ways of setting up compensation with foam inserts like Stix and even divinycell foam.

 

The nice thing about solid arms besides buoyancy compensation is the ability to either push the lights farther away from the lens, reducing backscatter in turbid waters.

Drew, I am using a Ikelite housing for the DSLR, and a acrylic 8" dome. Before I added lights, it was negative. Haven't tried it in the pool with lights. About to go in an hour, to test it. I also, added some lead tape that I put on the bottom of my dome cover to help balance it a little better. as the dome wanted to go up. It is better, but isn't perfect.

Thanks everyone. I have decided to go with the 4000's. The person who sold them to me, said that the flexible arms will not be strong enough to handle the weight of these. So I am moving towards some ULCS arms. I already have two 12 inch bouyancy arms. What would you guys recommend would be a good length? Is one section okay? Or should I do a 2 section. Not sure how much you end up adjusting your lights in Video. In photo, my wife has a 8 inch and 5 inch on each side. What do you think?

50 dives with a pair of Sola 4000s on the locline flexible arms. And no problems. They stay where you put them. Quick to position.

Just before exiting the water, I roll the lights down alongside the housing, keeping them nicely out of the way and somewhat protected when handing up the housing.

Additional advantage is that you can adjust the length in 1 inch increments.

Regards

Peter

Hey Dustin,

You are certainly focusing on an important issue. Everyone knows that lights are needed but you rarely hear discussions of lighting placement underwater while it is always a major subject when shooting topside. Not sure what light arm you are using and everyone has their preferences. Some use the ultra light arms while others, like myself, prefer the loc tight arms or arms similar to them.

One thing to make sure of, and this can be affected by the port you are using and how wide its angle is, is to avoid placing your arms/lights too far forward as they can sometimes get in, and thus ruin, your frame.

I have not used the 4000s but have been told by other users that they have a nice diffused light. However, if you see that there are any hotspots, try separating the two lights so that the diffused edges slightly overlap rather than have both aimed directly at the subject. This will provide a nice spread of light and avoid hot spotting.

If you have a 3rd light, you can place it, unseen, behind a subject or reef for some nice backlighting effects as well. With two lights, you can position one aiming down from above the subject while using the spread of the second light more directly. This would be useful in medium or macro shots.

Remember that even the best of underwater lights have limited throw in the water, often only a few feet, so for really wide angle shots of reefs or things in the distance, your lights will be of little use.

While everyone has there own working preferences, if I see something I want to film, I will generally turn on my lights and get roughly the position that I think I will need before I settle down in front of the subject to film. Settling down first and then turning on your lights can often frighten your subject as opposed to gradually bringing them into play.

I'm sure others here will have much more to contribute as well.

Steve

Steve,

After trying these out in the pool yesterday, I came back and re read what you said. In particular this part: ' However, if you see that there are any hotspots, try separating the two lights so that the diffused edges slightly overlap rather than have both aimed directly at the subject. This will provide a nice spread of light and avoid hot spotting. '

This is more a question for daylight shooting......Should I be pointing both lights at the same place? Not worrying about the lack of coverage everywhere else in the frame? In the pool I was trying for maximum frame coverage. And couldn't get it with the 2 4000's. I was using a 15mm fisheye. So it is obvisouly very wide. Instead of trying to fill the whole frame with light, should I be pointing both of the lights at the same subject/location? I understand not wanting a hotspot. But in general, should I be pointing them both in the same spot. Again, this question is for wide angle day time work. I understood your macro recommendations. Top and side. Let me know.

I appreciate your help with this.

Dustin