Changing setup to a DSLR?

Now before you think I'm dismissing 4/3, I'm not but you asked why I'm not recommending it and I answered. If you don't like the answer or disagree, that's absolutely within your right. However, there's no need to "overreact" as you say.

Drew,

Regardless of the replies that me and HDVdiver gave you, you try to get the better of everybody here. Always.

As you said, (as common user) that's absolutely within your right but for a moderator a slightly low profile approach would be appreciated. Regardless of the fact that the forum is yours or not, you should encourage users to post and not continuously showing the World you have infinite knowledge and we know nothing.

Just explain me why it's the second time I discuss with you and I receive a lot of pms from users complaining regarding your comments. Would be the first time I black list a moderator

I just received an invitation to what promises to be a interesting evening organized by the Australian Cinematographers Society and Zacuto. Basically a comparative "shoot-out" between:

 

Sony F65, Arri Alexa, RED Epic, Sony FS100, Sony F3, Canon C300, Canon 7D, Panasonic GH2 hacked and non-hacked.

 

I will post some comments about my personal impressions after the event. There might also be some other Wetpixel aussies there...send me a PM if you might be going.

I'm going to the London screening and I'm very much looking forward to seeing the results. I'm not normally a pixel peeper, but I do like to get geeky sometimes! I think this already played at NAB last week, but I've not heard anyone's opinion yet. I found the previous Zacuto shoot outs to be excellent and very informative, so hopefully this one will be too.

Cheers, Simon

Thanks for all the information and suggestions. Really enjoying reading through. I'm looking into the camera models suggested and will hopefully be able to make a educated decision as to what best suits..

Cheers.

Thanks. Since the OP did ask about video I think it's more important to note that the image on the GH2 is sort of "baked in", with no way of altering the look too much for post (ie flattening the curve/gamma etc). Canon has the Marvell and Cinestyle picture styles which allow very flat images for post.

That said, the GH2 fields, due to the high bit rate, allow for better deep field shots, due to the detail. The 5D3 sorta catches up once it's tossed in post and sharpened/graded, 5D2 looks terrible sharpened too much due to the aliasing!

I really have to disagree with this. The menu allows quite a few visually different Color/Picture Style that can be pre-set/user modified on the GH2. I spent a lot of time shooting bright colored objects in daylight to fine tune exactly the color/gamma/sharpness I wanted. I went from a relatively punchy color/gamma look to what is now a very nice, flat but not washed out look...straight out of the camera. Maybe I just like the way it looks but some others wouldn't...

Furthermore, the very high bitrate provides a lot of informational "headroom" for adjusting color; WB; gamma; and brightness/contrast A LOT during editing. GOP1 is fantastic from this perspective since all frames contain real-world, non-interpolated color/gamma information...which, again, makes a big difference during editing. The linear/log gamma facilities in EDIUS 6 are very effective with HBR mts, if required.

I'm not trying to change anyone's preconceptions...but you've really got to see how lovely the acquisition is/can be straight out of a well set-up (and that's the tricky part) GH2.

"I'm going to the London screening and I'm very much looking forward to seeing the results. I'm not normally a pixel peeper, but I do like to get geeky sometimes! smile.gif I think this already played at NAB last week, but I've not heard anyone's opinion yet."

Simon

Yes...it's a hard life being a pixel-peeper!

Apparently, the NAB screening never happen because of technical issues.

Have a look at Phil Coltart's "RED Epic verus Panasonic GH2" on Vimeo...it sent the RED FORUM guys into fits of apoplexy. You might not agree with him but it's a good read.

http://vimeo.com/30751603

"I left this review open for your interpretation but I will state strongly that I expected the RED to perform the same as a good 1080p cam like the GH2, only 5 times bigger. Mark my words clearly, because I was with the Epic for four days and on the phone extensively with RED, this camera is NOT sharp, pixel for pixel compared to the GH2. When you Zoom the RED raw files to 100% and you look at the GH2 at 100%, the GH2 smokes it. SMOKES IT! and I am not talking about false sharpening."

I really have to disagree with this. The menu allows quite a few visually different Color/Picture Style that can be pre-set/user modified on the GH2. I spent a lot of time shooting bright colored objects in daylight to fine tune exactly the color/gamma/sharpness I wanted. I went from a relatively punchy color/gamma look to what is now a very nice, flat but not washed out look...straight out of the camera. Maybe I just like the way it looks but some others wouldn't...

 

Furthermore, the very high bitrate provides a lot of informational "headroom" for adjusting color; WB; gamma; and brightness/contrast A LOT during editing. GOP1 is fantastic from this perspective since all frames contain real-world, non-interpolated color/gamma information...which, again, makes a big difference during editing. The linear/log gamma facilities in EDIUS 6 are very effective with HBR mts, if required.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's preconceptions...but you've really got to see how lovely the acquisition is/can be straight out of a well set-up (and that's the tricky part) GH2.

Information is the best thing and it's great that the information is available for people to make educated choices.

Re Pic Styles: Before the Technicolor/Marvell/Log pic styles for Canon were available, many shooters like Shane Hurlbut shot DSLR with a baked in look that was closest to what they wanted (Act of Valor is an example). That said, even GoPro has gone cinestyle flat look for a reason. Underwater clips tend to need grading to bring out the best and the flexibility of a flat image allows is pretty self-explanatory. Then you have the possibility of this:

[vimeohd]34650798[/vimeohd]

The profiles on the GH2, hacked or not, is still based on the fixed S curves of the factory profile. The headroom of the hacked Driftwood makes the clips very adjustable in post without breaking down too much though it's still 8bit 420. If it had the Marvell/Cinestyle/Prolost profiles which gave a nice flat pic to the Canons that adjusts well to grading.

For deep field focus shots, a robust codec like the AVC-I the Driftwood AVC Intra hack allows the GH2 is a great option. The limitation being the DR and pic profile, which to many is a problem to grade later. But that is definitely a subjective thing. Sometimes resolution is less important than curve/contrast/color.

Apparently, the NAB screening never happen because of technical issues.

Yup, something was wrong with the clip tests.

I won't touch the whole Camera X vs Y: which has better per pixel sharpness question. One shoots RAW 444 and the other 420 compressed. 2 different fields altogether.

The linear/log gamma facilities in EDIUS 6 are very effective with HBR mts, if required.

Hi, could you explain better your work-flow with the GH2 files in Edius 6?

Thanks

"Information is the best thing and it's great that the information is available for people to make educated choices...

...I won't touch the whole Camera X vs Y: which has better per pixel sharpness question. One shoots RAW 444 and the other 420 compressed. 2 different fields altogether."

This is essentially the situation for current decision making for all video cameras, from Scarlet/Epic down. The playing field has leveled so much in the last couple years (thanks to the Canon 5D2 and Vitaliy Kiselev/Ptool) that it's almost a mixed blessing...More choice of affordable DSLR's/Video cams that do a very good job, but more difficulty deciding which system is best for one's particular requirements/priorities.

No one camera will do it all...perfectly. Not only camera specs/capability comes into the decision making...ergonomics; weight; available housings/optics/ports/accessories. Some guys I know won't swap their clunker EX1/3 system for a DSLR because they prefer the stability that a big/heavy system offers.

The bottom line is that once you have made an informed choice/decision, used it in the field a few times and are personally happy with the results...that's it. There will always be better cameras out in a year or two (and that's a good thing). Meanwhile...if it works for you, just go out and enjoy it. Then comes the more challenging task of developing/refining video shooting technique...

A good videographer will do beautiful work with any of the currently available DSLR's.

As far as my workflow in Edius 6...it's a basic cookbook/straightforward approach. Nothing fancy...no codec conversions for the timeline material since the i7 Sandybridge is optimized to handle native H.264. Minimum possible gamma/color/WB correction (since I never WB underwater). The only plugin I use is Mercalli.

The bottom line is that once you have made an informed choice/decision, used it in the field a few times and are personally happy with the results...that's it. There will always be better cameras out in a year or two (and that's a good thing). Meanwhile...if it works for you, just go out and enjoy it. Then comes the more challenging task of developing/refining video shooting technique...

A good videographer will do beautiful work with any of the currently available DSLR's.

Completely agree.

Internet would be a better place if only people talked about things it own.

As far as my workflow in Edius 6...it's a basic cookbook/straightforward approach. Nothing fancy...no codec conversions for the timeline material since the i7 Sandybridge is optimized to handle native H.264. Minimum possible gamma/color/WB correction (since I never WB underwater). The only plugin I use is Mercalli.

Ah, that makes me feel better

I felt strange reading all the strange workflow to load the mts files in some other NLE. I just throw them into the bin.

BTW I too have the I7-2600K and Edius uses the hw encoding (Intel Quick Sync).

I was editing a project with a friend of mine: 36' 26" di AVCHD (hacked GH2) converted in BD superfine 35 mbits without QuickSync: 2h e 10 minutes,

With Qick Sync: 30 minutes.

Bye

As much as the DLSR cameras put out great footage, you will never be able to nail the same types of shots on a dive that you can with a video camera in a good housing.

I really don't know why more people don't use EDIUS.

It slices through just about any native files even all mixed up with each other super easy.

No silly hard drive sapping codecs to convert to for editing ending up with two flies of everything.

Renders out files super fast.

Ivy Bridge CPU just out, Quick Sync should even be faster again.

A good videographer will do beautiful work with any of the currently available DSLR's.

Well said. I recently received my second award for Cinematography from the International Wildlife Film Festival for footage mainly shot on a 7D, but it could just as easily have been shot on a 5DmkII, 60D, 600D, GH2, NEX5 or any other video capable HDSLR type camera! On top of that we have the new breed of large chip video cameras like the FS100/700, C300/500 and the new breed of HDSLR's like the 1DX, 5DmkIII, 1Dc and the Nikons etc etc. With what is on the market right now and what else is about to hit the streets in a few months time we could well be in the golden age of affordable cameras.....

Wagsy - not sure if you've ever taken your SLR underwater, but you should try it out side by side with your Z1/FX1 and see the difference. Sure you don't have access to controlled zooms, but you have many other benefits. I'm certainly not a HDSLR fan boy because they have many drawbacks and I'd certainly prefer to be using something with a camcorder type form factor, but when you weigh up all the pros and cons it is very hard to beat them as an all around package, particularly when you factor in the cost.

Cheers, Simon

Everything in photography and video is a trade off. Coming off a still photography background, I went with

the big sensor and better glass of a DSLR for my video. There are compromises in video controls, but for me the choice was clear.

With the incredible range of options today, there is no wrong choice. You weigh those options on the basis of what works for you, and you make your choice.

As much as the DLSR cameras put out great footage, you will never be able to nail the same types of shots on a dive that you can with a video camera in a good housing.

Could you please elaborate on this statement? What kinds of shots can you "nail" with a video camera in a good housing that you cannot nail with a video DSLR in a good housing?

Thanks,

--Mark

The bottom line is that once you have made an informed choice/decision, used it in the field a few times and are personally happy with the results...that's it. There will always be better cameras out in a year or two (and that's a good thing). Meanwhile...if it works for you, just go out and enjoy it. Then comes the more challenging task of developing/refining video shooting technique...

A good videographer will do beautiful work with any of the currently available DSLR's.

Yes. That is the point of discussing it in forums, to garner information. Unfortunately I do test quite a bit of the gear, case in point the Driftwood hack on a GH2 and even a Magic Lantern 5D2/60D with 75mb/s. Furthermore, there is bad information out there. There are desperate people who skew tests (on Vimeo/Youtube/blogs) to show their camera is better than another brand for whatever reason. Sad but true.

There are quite a few ways to look at things. A good videographer can do beautiful work with any camera, even a Go-Pro. But equipment can compliment them through proper selection and envisioning the proper shot. And that requires a technical mind as well. They are complimentary. A good shooter knows how to take advantage of the gear he/she has and the limitations so forth, but the great shooters chooses the right gear for the shot they envision.

I mean, do you want to be using Andre Laban's cameras from "Le Monde du Silence" now? Or would you choose other cameras/lenses to reshoot that wonderful opening sequence?

I really don't know why more people don't use EDIUS.

It slices through just about any native files even all mixed up with each other super easy.

No silly hard drive sapping codecs to convert to for editing ending up with two flies of everything.

Renders out files super fast.

You don't know by now ? LOL Edius is doing pretty well in the broadcast area. Maybe it'll pick up some more once 6.5 is out with native .r3d support. Still needs better/proper audio, compositor and other program integration to compete against CS. Plus the plug-in market isn't there either. Marketing budget is probably one of the biggest reasons vs Vegas. Vegas is Sony so it comes with so much exposure.

Could you please elaborate on this statement? What kinds of shots can you "nail" with a video camera in a good housing that you cannot nail with a video DSLR in a good housing?

Wags is right in a way. A camcorder/housing gives the flexibility from medium wide angle to medium macro in one package on one dive, due to the 10-20x optical zoom and ability to drop a diopter in front of the lens while having a WA adapter in the front for medium wide. The DOF allows for fewer focus issues as well, once just has to set it to focus less than 0.3-0.8m away (with a wide angle lens of course!) and everything will be in focus. It's a great general shooting option.

However, the DR, color, noise and lens options are limits as well. No such thing as a free lunch.

Yeh I know it has not got all the bells and whistles but if you want to produce something really fast you cannot really beat it.

It's bad enough trying to archive/backup native video footage as it is never mind having to archive the space sapping codecs too.

No, I have not dived with a DLSR shooting video nor have I a housing for mine for the number one reason it would not really fit my shooting style.

One can see in the videos all over the net their limitations shooting underwater however the quality is very nice and easy to travel with and best of both worlds.

I like to be able to zoom in from wide or pull from very close to wide on the fly.

Need to have the ability to shoot macro then zoom out to nail something large instantly.

Like the camera to auto track subjects sometimes as it moves towards and away from the camera while zooming in or out at the same time on the fly.

Need to easier go from auto to locked/maunal exposure and the same for focus.

Just my 2 cents :-)

I like to be able to zoom in from wide or pull from very close to wide on the fly.

Need to have the ability to shoot macro then zoom out to nail something large instantly.

Like the camera to auto track subjects sometimes as it moves towards and away from the camera while zooming in or out at the same time on the fly.

Need to easier go from auto to locked/maunal exposure and the same for focus.

Just my 2 cents :-)

All of this is/should be possible when using a well configured DSLR...with the additional advantages of:

A very large choice of good quality interchangeable lenses. Canons and GH2 have the extra benefit of accepting other older optics (I personally like the discontinued Contax Zeiss & Rokkors).

On the GH2 super-wide to macro is possible depending on what lens is used. There is also the amazing Extra-Tele Video Mode. Press a button and the image crops to a central portion of the sensor. Instant macro with any lens! This is full raster/native pixel mode so the quality gets even better (with decent lighting). It's almost as if it was purpose made for underwater photographers.

Fast and accurate AF allows tracking...which I personally do a lot of.

The DOF of the M4/3 sensor is, for me, the best of both worlds. Not too narrow (like a Full frame sensor DSLR) but not infinite like a small chip camcorder (which gives a video look). For macro to medium-macro in particular the M4/3 DOF characteristics help separate the subject from the background.

Even motorized zoom is slowly arriving...two such Panasonic lenses are available now and more are arriving soon.

I just read an entertaining article which shows that even the high end 4k camera users have issues to contend with. Apparently, reviewers who have seen shorts from the new Hobbit movie (which I have zero interest in) are complaining that the sets look fake...because of the high resolving power of the 4k RED at 48fps.

Perhaps the Hollywood storytellers need to stick with the "softness" of 2k to help them suspend disbelief...and leave the new technology to the likes of us to capture the beauty of the real world in high resolution splendor...

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7987/advance-...bbit-disappoint

FWIW I saw the same bits and a few more minutes in a private 4k screening and it was stunning (gotta love fiber net!) I can't say too much but it's not a finished product but a demonstration of 48fps and a public test to see reactions. The resolution was stunning and detail in 3D was probably too much for the uninitiated.

I believe some people are accustomed to film stock's ability to cover up flaws (smooth wrinkles etc etc). When they see reality in real micro contrast, they feel the magic of film is missing. A lot of that can be fixed in post. I mean one can see the leaves flickering in the wind in the back ground, even while blurred by DOF. I liked it alot.

I stumbled across this video yesterday. I think it's just shot with a Canon t2i/550D in an Ikelite housing. There are some exposure problems because he's left it on auto, and he's left in some out-of-focus macro, but some of the shots are amongst the best underwater quality I've seen (e.g. batfish at 02:20), especially for YouTube. It's one of the first u/w videos I've seen that made me think "OK, my Z1 couldn't do THAT". Never had that feeling with EX1 footage and I'm still yet to see any GH2 footage that gives me that feeling. I don't know what glass he used.

[youtubehd]9GWLd_oXq9Y[/youtubehd]

Randy is a good shooter! Steady and subject stays well framed. That shot of the V. anadyomene was very good, if only he could get rid of the people!

Equipment failure with the improper extension for his dome, resulting in blurry corners on some of the shots.... I'd guess 10-22mm quite a bit on the wide stuff and 100mm on the macro. The problem for handycams is getting pass 1:1 macro while maintaining image quality. Diopters degrade images, esp video ones which are cheap. The macro optics of a DSLR lens are just much better for close up work than the general works for everything camcorder lenses.

The Canon 600D also has a crop mode for macro, going to 3x and pixel for pixel on the sensor. Even the D4 is jumping onto the bandwagon.

No, I have not dived with a DLSR shooting video nor have I a housing for mine for the number one reason it would not really fit my shooting style.

One can see in the videos all over the net their limitations shooting underwater however the quality is very nice and easy to travel with and best of both worlds.

Wagsy you have to remember that most of the videos you've seen on the internet shot with a HDSLR were done by photographers or inexperienced video shooters. No offense to them, but put the same kit in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot video underwater and its a whole different ball game. Not trying to convince you mate, but you are looking at it from a skewed perspective. There is nothing I shot wide angle on HDV that compares to the results I get with a 7D. I've not done a lot of macro on my 7D and yes I'd certainly agree that the overall camera operation of a HDSLR falls down for this when compared to a traditional video camera, but when you get it right just look at the results EunJae has been getting.

Ok here's a bet. Take down your FX1 and rent or borrow a HDSLR housing and take that down too. Shoot them side by side and as long as you know what you are doing with your HDSLR you'll see the difference instantly. If you don't then (within reason!!) I'll get DeanB to perform any forfeit you can come up with... How's that for a bet eh?

I agree 100% about backing up and archiving, but tape is dead and this is what we have to live with now...

Cheers, Simon

...The Canon 600D also has a crop mode for macro, going to 3x and pixel for pixel on the sensor...

Does the 60D have that too? And are there any examples online of the results?

I'm sensing something new on the way from Canon in the realm of t4i/650D/65D in the fairly near future. Perhaps a 7DmkII also/instead but if the display doesn't articulate, I don't want it.

Simon, EunJae's stuff is fantastic, but you can tell he's had to work really hard at focus because of the shallow DOF. Was he shooting with 7D or 5DmkII? I can't remember now. EunJae?

Steve Fish's Critters@Lembeh macro is really nice too. 5DmkII with 100mm lens I think. He seems to have less DOF/focus challenges but it's probably EunJae's diopter that is the big difference.