Housing Pricing Sanity Check

I might be whining and complaining on this one, but has anybody besides myself ever balked at the price of some of the housings out there for P&S cameras? The reason I ask is I just saw the blurb on the home page about the Tetra housing for the 5060 going for a MSRP of $1599. A quick look at an online retailer shows the 5060 going for $549. That's almost 1/3 the cost of the Tetra housing. The Oly PT-020 housing goes for $185 on the same site. So the Tetra housing is actually 8.6 times more expensive than the Oly housing. Or put another way, the price of an Oly 5060 in a Tetra housing is almost 3 times the price of an Oly 5060 in an Oly housing.

I don't need flames on housing quality. I understand the Tetra is an incredibly good housing, as are Ikelites. I understand quality has a pricetag. It just seems a bit mind boggling the pricing difference. Admittedly a pro would want high quality equipment and would pay the extra 3x factor for the security of the brand name(and probably the greater depth rating). But then you have to ask yourself, what in the heck would a pro be doing with a P&S camera to begin with and not a digital SLR? If I were just a normal Joe wanting the same security, instead of buying the Tetra and Oly 5060, why not just buy two Oly 5060 in Oly PT-020 housings(one for backup when on remote dive trips when you can't replace the equipment easily) and use the left over $700~$800 to buy the best flood insurance plan on the planet?

Again, it seems like I am picking on Tetra and I really am not. I know it is a great brand name. I am just referring to customized housings in general. The pricing seems out of touch with the reality of what the camera is being used for and who is using it.

Just my $.02. Please take no offense. I am not brand-bashing--I just can't fathom what I see...

--John

I think that the economics of manufacturing play a big part of this. The inexpensive molded housings have a big upfront cost but very little labor or variable costs, while machined housings are very expensive to make and the fifth one costs only a little less than the first.

That explains the cost, but not the feasability...

You'll get no disagreement from me. Based on MSRP, there are a lot of DSLR housings that you can get for $1,599. But if you want to house a consumer camera, then the Tetra is the cream of the crop I guess.

But it's a personal choice. Some people prefer consumer cameras for a variety of reasons. Heck, some people actually buy the Olympus E1 - I have no idea why...again, a personal preference. People like different things - it's what makes life interesting.

Cheers

James

For $1599, I'd probably get an Oly housing and a Digital Rebel or D70 package. Shoot the SLR on land, enjoy your housed C-5060 underwater, and take a loved one out to a nice dinner with the left-over money.

Hi John,

Where are you seeing an L&M housing for the 5060? It's rather hard for me to make a comparison of features vs the 5050 and I can't find it on L&M's site.

I'm one of those whose sanity is in question (Nothing new here LOL!) but the easiest way for me to answer your question is based on hands on experience. Given the choice again, would I buy another Tetra and the answer would be yes.

I'd hate to give up the ROC control and TTL. I'm convinced these features allow me to take better pictures.

I didn't have to make a decision between the Oly and the new low priced DSLR's at the time I purchased mine so although that would be an issure to be pondered now, it was moot then.

Oh, and BTW, 3 people who have dove with me and seen the Tetra in use have purchased one. Two had the Oly housing.

Rand

Rand -

http://www.uwimaging.com/tetra_5060/index.htm

You know, you might want to check Wetpixel's home page every once in awhile.

Eric,

Oops! I've saved the site to go right to the forums page. Thanks, looks like the same features are available as the Tetra5050.

Rand

Yeah...my whole rant started when I was surfing in through the wetpixel main page and saw the Tetra article(thanks Eric!). My first thought was Cool! My second thought was Holy Sh!t that's expensive. My third thought was "Why make a case that's 8.6x more expensive than the cheapest alternative for a camera that's been discontinued?". Hey--Tetra looks like a super-sexy case. No bashing there. Funny you should mention your friends with the Oly cases bought in as well. Kind of mind-boggling. If I viewed the 5050 as my last camera purchase ever, sure I would splurge on the extra expensive case(no I wouldn't, really, but what the heck), but I'm the guy who views the camera as my latest camera and not my last. I.E. If I have what I need now to take pictures my money I am not spending is going towards my next camera purchase, not refining current capabilities. Otherwise, you're just polishing the brass on the Titanic. Just my humble $.02.

--John

John,

I believe in a roundabout way, you've explained my situation. This has and will be my "Rig" for some time to come. I want to work on the art of taking U/W pictures now. Composition, lighting etc. It's taken me the best part of a year and 150 dives to get to know the technicals of this system and how to best take advantage of it.

It's just a personal choice, like a car. Good luck with your decision.

Rand

Ahh...gotcha. I see my rig as being my rig for a year or two. I used my 2020 for two years and then got the 4040. A year and a handful of months later I got the 5050. The lenses I got with the 4040 are still getting use on my 5050. I see myself making a painful jump to Canon at some point in the future, but am not sure right now. Since that will take some major financial hemorrhaging, I am putting all those dollars away for the future buy. It's a personal choice, I'm sure. I just don't think I would want to invest the $1599 into refining current capabilities. That could pay for a lot of Canon :-)

Cheers,

John

Oh, and BTW, 3 people who have dove with me and seen the Tetra in use have purchased one. Two had the Oly housing

And the 4th bought a Digital Rebel :wink:

No one's said it, so I will. Chicks dig aluminum.

No doubt the Tetra is a sturdier piece. Having never used TTL underwater, no clue what I am missing.

Seriously. I had to replace an Oly 015 housing, slight leak (oxymoron?) at the mode dial. I went through the mental gyrations.... another 015 for <$200? (thus making it a potential "disposable" housing, the Ike for $600? (strobe issues), or the Cadillac Tetra? TO go Tetra, with lenses, bulkheads, etc., I was looking at >$2000, just to switch housings. COUld not justify it.

It just seemed odd that the price point of the three main choices was SOOOO different.

Chris

AGREED!

This is an interesting discussion - it's good to hear from different people about how they see this issue.

Personally, I think the super-low price of the PT house is a good thing all the way around. It gets people UW with a nice 5MP camera that can take great images. The biggest down-sides you face is the low-durability/short life-span of the box and no hard-wired strobes will work with it. (The housed Oly strobe being an exception with the PT-020, but it's not the greatest...) On another level, these housings are very nice. The camera's do have shutter lag, but their lenses are super versatile: you can go from WA to macro in the same dive. (Even more so if you have wet-change-able lenses.) They are also very compact. As a learning tool, they are ideal. You get started for cheap, and can take great images right away. Particularly for people who dive only occasionally, the PT houses make great sense. It a great option for starting out.

As soon as you start adding strobes, things kinda change. I think the most salient difference in the house you choose, beyond durability, is the strobes you can use with it - and how they will work. Inon has a wonderful strobe for use with the PT houses. The D180 can do excellent auto exposures with it's fiber-optic system. (It takes-over the pre-flash function, giving you accurate D-TTL.) The D180 costs as much as the camera, however, and you can't hard-wire it - so to use it you will always have to have a clear plastic housing. If you go with the Inon Z220 you pay more AND have to give up D-TTL, but it will work both ways (hard-wired and fiber-optically).

On the other extreme of the price scale is the Tetra for the 5050/5060. While it's not entirely accurate to compare only the list prices (street prices are lower) six to eight times more expensive is about right, depending where you buy. The Tetra is metal, very durable, and has circuitry built in allowing you to hard wire the sync cord and get perfect D-TTL exposures with many UW strobes - including the Z220. It also has a leak alarm. The strobes are controlled from the housing - no reaching for the strobe - very nice indeed. As other have said, LOTS of people who carefully compare the features and value between the PT house and the Tetra pick the Tetra.

My first camera was a Nikon CoolPix 5000 and a Tetra box. It didn't do good D-TTL (like the 5050 and now 5060 does) but I used it on hundreds of dives and it took great images. The control features of the Light & Motion housings are a cut above the rest. Aquatica makes a great metal house for the CP5000 - for MUCH less than the Tetra - but you don't get some nice control features the Tetra provides. (On the other hand, if you use a dome with the Aquatica, you can use the Nikon 19mm WA. For many, this is THE nicest setup available in a "point & shoot" camera today.) The Ikelite house for the CP5000 is a couple hundred less than the Aquatica - but of course now you are talking about a plastic house. (Not that it's bad at all - but it IS bulkier.) It's only my opinion, but I don't think the PT holds a candle to any of these - but as an inexpensive start, by my way of thinking the PT wins the day.

Personally, I think the days of the P&S digital cameras are (for many shooters) numbered for UW. There will always be people who want the compactness and versatility of the P&S option, but with the new Canon D-Rebel and Nikon D70, a new day is dawning in UW digital photography. For a relatively small increase in price (over a 5060 in a Tetra house) you can now be light-years beyond any of the P&S cameras - just take a look at the D-Rebel and the Aquatica A300 with its E-TTL! The exception is the 5050/5060 & PT. As much as I admire the Tetra, for my money I'd spend a little extra and get a DSLR - or I'd spend a LOT less and get the PT & 5050/5060. Note I say "for me" - for others the size/portability and lens issues might hold sway. My advice is to take a serious look at the DSLR options before deciding to spend $2000+ on a 5MP P&S camera and a house...

WHy I went to the Digital Rebel...NO SHUTTER LAG! Well, that and a number of other factors that I felt made it superior to the 5000 I was shooting. With the 5 meg camera you are limited in how big you can actually print one of those keeper shots. Oh sure you can post them up on the web and crop the crap out of them to make it look like a better shot than it was but I still think the proof is in the pudding when I try to print a shot.

A recent article on noise between p&s and DSLR's helped push me over the top. With the price of the Rebel and the D70 along with Aquatica housings it was just that easy to get into.

I think you need to match the camera and housing with your desired end results also, don't over buy if you never intend to get there. If you might get there the odds are technology will have changed and you can jump in then.

Sure I am learning a new set-up but I feel like I have a real camera in my hands now. The key now will be can may hands make it dance...

IMHO

There will always be people who want the compactness and versatility of the P&S option

Both if which, at least for Oly, are going to be non-issues soon.

Re: Versatility, with the introduction of the 5060 and PT 020 housing (I believe) that wetmate lenses for these setups are a thing of the past.

Re: size, just looked at housing dimension comparisons at digideep, the PT-023 for the Oly 8080 appears to be bigger :shock: than the Aquatica A300 housing for the D Reb.

Since the 5050, and eventually the 5060 with the 8080 out there, being faded out, these two differences will no longer be, well, differences.

Chris

Kenashman--excellent post! Thanks for your comments! I agree with you wholeheartedly. My intent is not to disrespect expensive housings. In my economics I just can't justify it. I have a 5050 in an Oly housing that I have been using 2-3 times a week since last April or so. It's taken quite a beating and has served me well. I love this thing.

I agree with yahsemtough in the respect that I am looking at switching over to Canon. I enjoy the 5050 very much and have accessorized to an extreme. I love what I have. But I want to move to a DSLR. I was a hair away from buying the D10 when my friend back home in Hawaii told me they had none in stock and that that they were told not to take more orders on it because the new models would be replacing it soon enough. So I am waiting on the next round of DSLRs to come out...biding my time. But yahsemtough, I can't understand the comment about printability. I print stunning 12x18 prints. The place I go doesn't print larger, or else I would try. Were you looking to wallpaper your room?

Anyhow, thanks everyone for the comments. I really appreciate em!

--John

 I was a hair away from buying the D10 when my friend back home in Hawaii told me they had none in stock and that that they were told not to take more orders on it because the new models would be replacing it soon enough. So I am waiting on the next round of DSLRs to come out...biding my time. But yahsemtough, I can't understand the comment about printability. I print stunning 12x18 prints. The place I go doesn't print larger, or else I would try. Were you looking to wallpaper your room?  

Anyhow, thanks everyone for the comments. I really appreciate em!

 

--John

You mean the Canon 10D ? That's interesting news.

Re: prints.... pictopia.com will print any size you want. A few months ago I had the pleasure of attending a presentation by Eric and saw some of his prints from the D60. There's a very noticeable difference between his prints and ones from my 5050. The difference in noise is noticable even in the projected image, but very obvious in the big prints. The audience of mostly experienced film shooters were very impressed. One of them commented to me a day or two afterwards how great the prints from the 1Ds were. He was shocked when I told him they were prints from the D60. Eric spent some time showing off his 1Ds and some of them were confused about which camera took the shots he showed.

There was a funny moment after that presentation when Eric and I were chatting with Monte Simth and Eric mentioned he just drove down in his new car.

Me: Oh, what you get?

Eric: Subaru

Me: I drive a Subaru. Which one?

Eric: WRX

Me: Me too. I have a WRX wagon.

Eric: I have the wagon also.

Me: What color is it.

Eric: Black.

Me: I have a black one also....

Yeah, the 10D seems to be slowly going away. Backorders will be filled as stock becomes available, but my friend said it was already on its way out and to wait a few months for the new model. Of course, then I will have to wait a little longer for a housing...ah...

12x18 is the largest size at the place I go for printing. At this size, all looks nice. Of course, I don't have anything to compare it to, so I am happy.

Oh, BTW, I bought the Z220. It arrived an hour or so ago...I am SO thrilled about the size...amazing!!

--John

....

As soon as you start adding strobes, things kinda change.  I think the most salient difference in the house you choose, beyond durability, is the strobes you can use with it - and how they will work.  Inon has a wonderful strobe for use with the PT houses.  The D180 can do excellent auto exposures with it's fiber-optic system.  (It takes-over the pre-flash function, giving you accurate D-TTL.)  The D180 costs as much as the camera, however, and you can't hard-wire it - so to use it you will always have to have a clear plastic housing.  If you go with the Inon Z220 you pay more AND have to give up D-TTL, but it will work both ways (hard-wired and fiber-optically).

Ken, you may think that the corrections I am going to point out are semantic, however your position in this community as an "expert" makes it very important that you have a handle on the semantics. You need to recognize that when you throw out comments without verifying terms and methodologies, people listen to you and then carry around misinformation.

Let's start with the paragraph above. The D-180 does not "give accurate D-TTL". In the first place D-TTL is a Nikon term which I believe is trademarked. Even if it is not trademarked, Olympus does not use that term. Beyond that, what the D-180 does is not TTL of any kind. "Through the Lens" means just that -- the control is through the lens. The D-180 auto function requires you to set the aperture of the camera on a dial on the strobe. A light sensor in the strobe head quenches the strobe when it calculates enough light has been delivered. The auto system is completely independent of the pre-flash system. In fact, with a 5050 or later, the best approach is to put the camera in "Slave" mode and eliminate the pre-flash altogether. If you have a camera where the pre-flash cannot be disabled, the D-180's Advanced Cancel Circuit will fire a pre-flash that will "trick" the camera into firing a very weak, brief main flash, thus conserving battery life. The pre-flash system has absolutely nothing to do with the D-180's auto quenching system.

Moving on:

On the other extreme of the price scale is the Tetra for the 5050/5060.  While it's not entirely accurate to compare only the list prices (street prices are lower) six to eight times more expensive is about right, depending where you buy.  The Tetra is metal, very durable, and has circuitry built in allowing you to hard wire the sync cord and get perfect D-TTL exposures with many UW strobes - including the Z220.   It also has a leak alarm.  The strobes are controlled from the housing - no reaching for the strobe - very nice indeed.  As other have said, LOTS of people who carefully compare the features and value between the PT house and the Tetra pick the Tetra.  

While this is not completely inaccurate, it is not complete. When a 5050/5060 Tetra is assembled with a strobe, the strobe is connected to the housing, but it is not connected to the camera. The housing is reading the camera's flash optically and interpreting the fire and quench signals into electronic signals. This is quite different from what Ikelite is doing with its new Oly housings and what Olympus is doing with the new 5060 and 8080 housings, and what Matthias Heinric is doing with his modification kits. These three are truly letting the camera control the external strobes.

Steering back toward the original subject, L&M has always followed the beat of their own drummer. My personal feeling is that their brilliant designs are often held back by less than satisfactory manufacturing. I've experienced it. So has board moderator Craig. Is a Tetra 5050 or Tetra 5060 really worth 7 or 8 times the price of a PT? Like Rand has said, it depends on how much you use it and how much you want auto strobe control. I wouldn't pay it. Others would.