S&S YS-D3 vs Inon Z330?

4 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

Yes that is what I was suggesting but white eneloop last longer in terms of total life i.e. number of charges

Yes, I am aware of that. Something like 2000 charges versus 500 for the Pros.

I usually do at least 2 dives per charge. By the time I've done 1000 dives, if my Eneloop Pros are worn out and need to be replaced, I will be fine with that.  

Hi Massimo and Stuart,

I was not aware that the black Eneloops bring higher flash frequencies, so I am gradually replacing them with the white ones (cheaper and i have the impression the white ones are more durable)...

I have black ones left and repeated the test with four black Eneloops - the results are essentially the same (@3 fps):

330 at power "-2" (i.e. 1/4 power): flash every time - 100% sucess. Intensity always 100% as judged by eye...

Z330 at power "-1" (i.e. 1/2 power): 5 failures out of 12 - 58% sucess . Intensity always 100% as judged by eye...

Z330 at power "-0.5" (i.e. 1/1.5 power): 5 failures out of 12 - 58% sucess . Intensity always 100% as judged by eye...

The pattern with "-1" and "-0.5" is the same: first two flashes are full, then no flash is alternating with full flash (full flash judged by brightness of flash on the back monitor of the camera, did not notice differences..).

It sems my Z330 and/or the black Eneloops do not know that they should deliver higher flash frequencies compared to the white ones...

Wolfgang

Just now, Architeuthis said:

It sems my Z330 and/or the black Eneloops do not know that they should deliver higher flash frequencies compared to the white ones...

 

Wolfgang

 

How old are your black Eneloops? I wonder if they have been used a lot and their capacity for a high discharge rate has been reduced. 

Especially if you are comparing them to new white Eneloops.

Regardless, I will stick to the black ones. As I said, they will last many more dives than I am concerned with.  And thank you again for doing these tests.

I am looking forward to doing my own similar tests with my Z240s and then, eventually, with some Retra Pros, with and without their battery extender pack. Perhaps 10 frames per second will be possible with the battery extender and running at 1/4 power or a little less?!? That would be amazing! I mostly shoot sharks and 10fps (with 1/250 sync speed) would afford some very interesting opportunities!

At the moment, I just have to keep waiting for the updated UWT trigger for my a7rIV. The first one I got was defective. I've been waiting on a replacement for almost 2 weeks now.

Black eneloop last 500 cycles white last around 2100 in terms of years black also die younger

So if your black are well used they are already suffering more it is normal

There is a guy that made measures and for high power applications black are preferred also in terms of not burning

Heck, if I had to replace my Eneloops Pros after every 100 charges (200 dives) to maintain peak performance, I would be perfectly fine with that. For me, that is very likely to be at least 2 years. And they are not THAT expensive.

My Eneloops are both used, black or white, but they were supposed to be fully charged...

I usually do two, often three dives per charging, never ran a flash out of power, neither with white nor with black...

It preferred so far the whites, not just because they are cheaper, but because they make less problems (at least I have the feeling this is the case, no statistical testing). When diving at home this is not a problem, as I have not only the regular charger, but also a more sophisticated charger ("Ansmann") that allows servicing of akkus, but this last too long (>24h), when I am on a diving vacation. Then it is unpleasant, when I have to remove single akkus from the set, because the regular charger shows "error"...

In case the black ones provide higher flash frequency, I would switch back to black ones. As it looks now to me there is maybe a little difference, when using new black ones, but maybe the difference is just homeopathic...

(But now I am challenged. Will put the black ones in the Ansmann charger and refresh them and then repeat the test. Will last 24h - 48h, however, until they are ready).

I am eager to hear how fast the Retras can fire...

Cheers, Wolfgang

@Architeuthis I think even after putting them through a Refresh cycle, if they have lost some of their ability for a high discharge rate, that ability is gone. They may still charge to full or nearly-full capacity (2500mAh, or whatever it is). But, they still might not be able to give as much discharge current as they could when new.

However, I'm no battery engineer, so I could be wrong about that.

I am also looking forward to seeing how fast the Retras can fire. My buddy has been using YS-250 Pros when we go to shoot sharks. He uses them specifically because of their higher cycle rate. Watching him shoot with those, sometimes it looks like a disco strobe is going off. Or a major lightning storm. I get jealous every time - even though my z240s actually don't lag THAT far behind.

I expect the Retras will do as well or better - especially when loaded with the battery extender pack.

Unfortunately, it will probably be a few months yet before I can throw down $2500+ for a pair of Retra Pros with all the extra bits.

Yes,
the s&S 250pros are great!
But heavy and bulky for airplane travelling....
I take them with me, if i can travell by car...
Accus can easy bechanged to modell car accus, and there is a big range oft types and quality...
For flying i use a pair of Inon Z240s, my girl friend a single Z330.
And we are happy with them.
Have a set of S&S D2 as well, but they are harder to ignite, the light sensor is much less sensitive than the Inons ( type 4 ).
Same with the 250pros...
The panels on the Z240s are a bit more tricky than the D2, thats why i bought them, specially for night and cave diving.
But if they dont fire, it helps not a lot...

Regards,
Wolfgang

3 minutes ago, trimix125 said:

Yes,
the s&S 250pros are great!
But heavy and bulky for airplane travelling....
I take them with me, if i can travell by car...
Accus can easy bechanged to modell car accus, and there is a big range oft types and quality...
For flying i use a pair of Inon Z240s, my girl friend a single Z330.
And we are happy with them.
Have a set of S&S D2 as well, but they are harder to ignite, the light sensor is much less sensitive than the Inons ( type 4 ).
Same with the 250pros...
The panels on the Z240s are a bit more tricky than the D2, thats why i bought them, specially for night and cave diving.
But if they dont fire, it helps not a lot...

Regards,
Wolfgang

What are "accus"? Maybe it just clicked. Accumulators? I.e. batteries?

Sorry,
translation mistake from me...
In german batteries are single use, accus are rechargeable...
My fault.
Regards,
Wolfgang

I used to use Sea & Sea strobes because they were cheap and easily available. A false economy because frequency of failure and consequent cost of repair accumulated annually. I moved to Inon strobes and in 15 years they have never failed. The only disadvantage is you need a phd in Inon to work out how to drive them.

I would hope Sea & Sea electronics have improved since. Nevertheless, the design of the battery contacts and the lever micro switches inside appears to be the same or similar, so perhaps those failure points remain.

Dear friends,

I must tell you that the test results for maximum framerate with Inon Z330, that I posted on March 20th, are wrong! I did not adjust the menue on my EM1II camera correctly, so the framerate was slower as it was supposed to be ...

I apologize for the mistake, but today I repeated the test (and made sure that the framerate is correct). Better correct it now than let it stand wrong...

#1.: Maximum rate possible with FLM3 miniflash at 1/64 manual power on EM1II:

I made two (2 fps) and three (3 fps) series, 12 flashes in a sequence and measured how many flashes could be elicited (1: flash; 0: no flash):

2 fps:  1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 (=100%); 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 (=100%)

3 fps: 1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0 (=50%); 1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0 (=50%); 1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0 (=50%);

=> The FLM3 becomes rate limiting at rates >2fps. When higher rates are desired, a flash trigger is required (I must say I have a Nauticam flash trigger here, but never used it so far)...

#2.: I made a "refresh" cycle with four white and with four black Eneloops. The "capacities" were as follows: white Eneloops 2010 - 2040 mAh, black Eneloops 2470 - 2480 mAh. Seems o.k. to me...

#3.: Results at 2 fps (when FLM3 always delivers a flash for trigger), different power settings of the Z330 flash ("-0.5"=75%; "-1"=50%; "-2"=25%):

white Eneloops:

"-0.5": 1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0 (=50%)

"-1":    1/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1 (=58%)

"-2":    1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 (=100%)

black Eneloops:

"-0.5": 1/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/0 (=33%)

"-1":    1/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1 (=58%)

"-2":    1/1/1/1/1/0/1/0/1/1/0/0 (=67%)

I conclude that the difference in charging time between black and white is not substantial with Z330 (at least when the batteries are freshly charged; later, when the voltage has dropped after a number of flashese, charging time may well be shorter with the batteries with higher "capacity", as they maintain higher voltage for longer). Performance of black ones was even worse in my case (probably older). In case higher flash power and rates are desired, than a different flash model model is required, Pro Eneloops do not help...

2 fps at 25% power ("-2") works perfect, already with the white Eneloops. Eventually higher rates are possible, when Z330 power is even more reduced, but will require a flash trigger faster than FLM3. The flash trigger, however, will not help to increase the frame rate above 2 fps at power settings >"-2"(then the Z330 becomes rate limiting)...

Hope this is helpful, Wolfgang

@Architeuthis That is awesome, Wolfgang! Thank you for doing that and posting!

In my hands at least and using this battery tester, eneloops (white or black) after a refresh cycle sometimes show much less than the expected capacity. I have an old set of white (2000 mAh) batteries that when new tested at 1 amp discharge and gave like 1900 mAh results. Over time they drifted down. I refreshed them in a LaCrosse battery charger and after refresh and then fully charging them they were only 1300 mAh. If they do test at full capacity on a 1A discharge they appear to work fine in strobes. I also have been looking at internal resistance and it goes up on older batteries even after discharge

Bill